Handling/Ride improvements

[msecoolcal@...]

I have handling problems on my coach as well but reading your information
and input leaves me at a total loss as to a comparison of problems. I
appreciate you providing this information but you have not provided one hint as
to
the model of BB you have done this work on.

Matthew
1979 fc35sb
So Cal



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Bradner]

Some of you may recall that I asked if anyone here had ever had a Ride
Performance Assessment done on a Bird by Henderson's Lineup in Grant's Pass,
Oregon. Didn't hear from anyone who had, just one recommendation for another
place and Tom's very negative view of the idea.

Our first 2K miles or so were mostly freeway, and I would class the overall
handling/ride on freeways as good. I was therefore surprised on our recent trip
up the coast of Oregon and Washington at how poorly it rode the many
washout-dips on 101. Porpoise and sway was the order of the day!

I decided that it would be worth the $150 cost of the assessment to see what a
pro thought, and we took Blue Thunder into Grant's Pass this past Wednesday.
Their shop foreman did our assessment drive, and he did not feel that the ride
was exceptionally bad, but did agree that it could be better. He recommended, in
order of importance:

1. Adjust the existing front Konis (presumably a replacement by another owner)
to a stiffer ride.

2. Add their motion-control units to the air bags.

3. Replace the original shocks on the rear with Koni FSDs.

The first item turned out to be impossible - the shocks simply would not take an
adjustment. They tried both on (releasing the bottom end) and off the coach on
the bench. All they would do was spin. They were also very difficult to expand
and contract.

Replacing the shocks was not possible on the spot, because of the three
different part numbers needed (90-2490SP1 in the front, 9005-1025 on the
drivers, 8805-1010 on the tag) only the 8805 is a stock part for them, and the
various sources they use, including KoniRV, did not have the others in stock
either.

Item 2 is an interesting one, and a hard decision. The reason it is hard is that
you have to pay a lot for some very small parts. The MCUs are sold (exclusively
so far as I can tell) under Henderson's Steer Safe brand, but are made by
Donvel. They are about the size of a shotgun shell, and their purpose is to
allow normal fill-and-dump flows to each airbag, but resist sudden flow that
occurs when a bag is compressed or extended by going over a curb/bump or
dropping into a hole.

The most common installation is inline in typical plastic airlines, as near the
bag as possible. Fairly simple installation, and they run I think $185 a pair.
For hard-plumbed installations like the Bird, they have units that screw into
the top of the bag, then the airline is attached to the unit. Those are newer
designs and run $250 per pair.

I found a few postings on the internet that attested to them working well, and
none that said they didn't, although there were definite gripes about the price!

My tolerance for cost when it comes to ride/handling/safety may be higher than
most - I decided to go for it. They had 8 of them of the necessary size (there
are 7 units depending on pipe size and vehicle weight), so we did everything but
the tags.

We will likely go through there in September and get all of the shocks replaced.
With a glass-half-full perspective, we are able to evaluate the effect of the
MCUs with no other changes to the system.

Conclusion: significant reduction in sway. Flatter through corners. The most
obvious test is a speed bump taken at an angle. Before, when the drivers would
cross the bump, the coach would rock back and forth in a major way, now it just
tilts up as one side goes over, then the other way as the other side crosses,
then back to level.

The run home from Grant's Pass involves US 199 to Crescent City. That is about a
good a test run for cornering as you can find. I won't say the MCUs made the
drive fun, but I was a lot less worried about bouncing off things than in the
past. That will always be a bit of a paranoid run for me - I did bounce off a
guard-rail in the past on that highway in an SOB; I could swear I had enough
room, but I rocked outward just enough to hit. No scrape, just a linear crease
about 20 feet long.

[Don Bradner]

My apologies. I forget to insert a signature about half the time.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

On 6/4/2007 at 7:07 PM msecoolcal@... wrote:

>I have handling problems on my coach as well but reading your
>information
>and input leaves me at a total loss as to a comparison of problems. I
>appreciate you providing this information but you have not provided one
>hint as to
>the model of BB you have done this work on.
>
>Matthew
>1979 fc35sb
>So Cal

[Gregory OConnor]

I once asked an ophthalmologist if vision was the cause of my
headaches. He sold me glasses

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> Some of you may recall that I asked if anyone here had ever had a
Ride Performance Assessment done on a Bird by Henderson's Lineup in
Grant's Pass, Oregon. Didn't hear from anyone who had, just one
recommendation for another place and Tom's very negative view of the
idea.
>
> Our first 2K miles or so were mostly freeway, and I would class the
overall handling/ride on freeways as good. I was therefore surprised
on our recent trip up the coast of Oregon and Washington at how
poorly it rode the many washout-dips on 101. Porpoise and sway was
the order of the day!
>
> I decided that it would be worth the $150 cost of the assessment to
see what a pro thought, and we took Blue Thunder into Grant's Pass
this past Wednesday. Their shop foreman did our assessment drive, and
he did not feel that the ride was exceptionally bad, but did agree
that it could be better. He recommended, in order of importance:
>
> 1. Adjust the existing front Konis (presumably a replacement by
another owner) to a stiffer ride.
>
> 2. Add their motion-control units to the air bags.
>
> 3. Replace the original shocks on the rear with Koni FSDs.
>
> The first item turned out to be impossible - the shocks simply
would not take an adjustment. They tried both on (releasing the
bottom end) and off the coach on the bench. All they would do was
spin. They were also very difficult to expand and contract.
>
> Replacing the shocks was not possible on the spot, because of the
three different part numbers needed (90-2490SP1 in the front, 9005-
1025 on the drivers, 8805-1010 on the tag) only the 8805 is a stock
part for them, and the various sources they use, including KoniRV,
did not have the others in stock either.
>
> Item 2 is an interesting one, and a hard decision. The reason it is
hard is that you have to pay a lot for some very small parts. The
MCUs are sold (exclusively so far as I can tell) under Henderson's
Steer Safe brand, but are made by Donvel. They are about the size of
a shotgun shell, and their purpose is to allow normal fill-and-dump
flows to each airbag, but resist sudden flow that occurs when a bag
is compressed or extended by going over a curb/bump or dropping into
a hole.
>
> The most common installation is inline in typical plastic airlines,
as near the bag as possible. Fairly simple installation, and they run
I think $185 a pair. For hard-plumbed installations like the Bird,
they have units that screw into the top of the bag, then the airline
is attached to the unit. Those are newer designs and run $250 per
pair.
>
> I found a few postings on the internet that attested to them
working well, and none that said they didn't, although there were
definite gripes about the price!
>
> My tolerance for cost when it comes to ride/handling/safety may be
higher than most - I decided to go for it. They had 8 of them of the
necessary size (there are 7 units depending on pipe size and vehicle
weight), so we did everything but the tags.
>
> We will likely go through there in September and get all of the
shocks replaced. With a glass-half-full perspective, we are able to
evaluate the effect of the MCUs with no other changes to the system.
>
> Conclusion: significant reduction in sway. Flatter through corners.
The most obvious test is a speed bump taken at an angle. Before, when
the drivers would cross the bump, the coach would rock back and forth
in a major way, now it just tilts up as one side goes over, then the
other way as the other side crosses, then back to level.
>
> The run home from Grant's Pass involves US 199 to Crescent City.
That is about a good a test run for cornering as you can find. I
won't say the MCUs made the drive fun, but I was a lot less worried
about bouncing off things than in the past. That will always be a bit
of a paranoid run for me - I did bounce off a guard-rail in the past
on that highway in an SOB; I could swear I had enough room, but I
rocked outward just enough to hit. No scrape, just a linear crease
about 20 feet long.
>

[bubblerboy64]

So?



>
> I once asked an ophthalmologist if vision was the cause of my
> headaches. He sold me glasses
>
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
> wrote:
> >
> > Some of you may recall that I asked if anyone here had ever had a
> Ride Performance Assessment done on a Bird by Henderson's Lineup in
> Grant's Pass, Oregon. Didn't hear from anyone who had, just one
> recommendation for another place and Tom's very negative view of
the
> idea.
> >
> > Our first 2K miles or so were mostly freeway, and I would class
the
> overall handling/ride on freeways as good. I was therefore
surprised
> on our recent trip up the coast of Oregon and Washington at how
> poorly it rode the many washout-dips on 101. Porpoise and sway was
> the order of the day!
> >
> > I decided that it would be worth the $150 cost of the assessment
to
> see what a pro thought, and we took Blue Thunder into Grant's Pass
> this past Wednesday. Their shop foreman did our assessment drive,
and
> he did not feel that the ride was exceptionally bad, but did agree
> that it could be better. He recommended, in order of importance:
> >
> > 1. Adjust the existing front Konis (presumably a replacement by
> another owner) to a stiffer ride.
> >
> > 2. Add their motion-control units to the air bags.
> >
> > 3. Replace the original shocks on the rear with Koni FSDs.
> >
> > The first item turned out to be impossible - the shocks simply
> would not take an adjustment. They tried both on (releasing the
> bottom end) and off the coach on the bench. All they would do was
> spin. They were also very difficult to expand and contract.
> >
> > Replacing the shocks was not possible on the spot, because of the
> three different part numbers needed (90-2490SP1 in the front, 9005-
> 1025 on the drivers, 8805-1010 on the tag) only the 8805 is a stock
> part for them, and the various sources they use, including KoniRV,
> did not have the others in stock either.
> >
> > Item 2 is an interesting one, and a hard decision. The reason it
is
> hard is that you have to pay a lot for some very small parts. The
> MCUs are sold (exclusively so far as I can tell) under Henderson's
> Steer Safe brand, but are made by Donvel. They are about the size
of
> a shotgun shell, and their purpose is to allow normal fill-and-dump
> flows to each airbag, but resist sudden flow that occurs when a bag
> is compressed or extended by going over a curb/bump or dropping
into
> a hole.
> >
> > The most common installation is inline in typical plastic
airlines,
> as near the bag as possible. Fairly simple installation, and they
run
> I think $185 a pair. For hard-plumbed installations like the Bird,
> they have units that screw into the top of the bag, then the
airline
> is attached to the unit. Those are newer designs and run $250 per
> pair.
> >
> > I found a few postings on the internet that attested to them
> working well, and none that said they didn't, although there were
> definite gripes about the price!
> >
> > My tolerance for cost when it comes to ride/handling/safety may
be
> higher than most - I decided to go for it. They had 8 of them of
the
> necessary size (there are 7 units depending on pipe size and
vehicle
> weight), so we did everything but the tags.
> >
> > We will likely go through there in September and get all of the
> shocks replaced. With a glass-half-full perspective, we are able to
> evaluate the effect of the MCUs with no other changes to the
system.
> >
> > Conclusion: significant reduction in sway. Flatter through
corners.
> The most obvious test is a speed bump taken at an angle. Before,
when
> the drivers would cross the bump, the coach would rock back and
forth
> in a major way, now it just tilts up as one side goes over, then
the
> other way as the other side crosses, then back to level.
> >
> > The run home from Grant's Pass involves US 199 to Crescent City.
> That is about a good a test run for cornering as you can find. I
> won't say the MCUs made the drive fun, but I was a lot less worried
> about bouncing off things than in the past. That will always be a
bit
> of a paranoid run for me - I did bounce off a guard-rail in the
past
> on that highway in an SOB; I could swear I had enough room, but I
> rocked outward just enough to hit. No scrape, just a linear crease
> about 20 feet long.
> >
>

[Don Bradner]

I understand the comment, although you read a bit more into things than I wrote
- I very deliberately did not suggest any possible source of the problem(s),
including the obvious one (shocks) because of wanting to avoid exactly that
issue.

It is always a rock-and-a-hard-place when you go to a business and ask them to
make recommendations in their area of sales. Yet we do it all the time, because
none of us can be experts in all things, nor can we know about all of the
possible products available. I could not, for example, have suggested the motion
control units because I did not know they existed. Once they were suggested to
me, then it became my problem to do what I could to determine if they were snake
oil, or not. The answer I got from internet searches (and talking to the one
customer there (getting a toad-braking system installed) who already had these
was less than definitive. No objective third-party testing, for example, which
would have been nice.

At that point it was purely an "am I willing to lose this money on the gamble if
it is worthless" against "something really needs to be done to improve sway."
What I chose is clear in my prior post.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

On 6/5/2007 at 3:40 AM Gregory OConnor wrote:

>I once asked an ophthalmologist if vision was the cause of my
>headaches. He sold me glasses

[David Brady]

Don,

At some point Wanderlodge decided to do something about
Ridewell's road manners - not sure when they added front sway bars,
but my '02 LXi has one. It's about 2 inches in diameter. Paul Lazar went
to IPD to have a sway bar put on the front of his '97 WB (same suspension
as my bus). He's very pleased with the upgrade. Sounds like all the WB's
could be much improved with a front sway bar. IPD was sold to Roadmaster,
so I'm not sure what's available anymore. The MCU's sound kinda like
a poor man's sway bar in that they provide roll resistance by limiting
rapid air
flow from one side to the other. In a long a long turn I guess the air
will get through
though. The Ridewell tag axle provides a ton of roll resistance, not
sure that you
need the MCU's at the rear. I've had a ton of success with the Koni FSD
shocks
at the rear (wish they'd make 'em for the front), and of course ride
height tuning
helped my coach considerably, but then again, my air bags might be different
than yours (pistons are hour glass shaped). Good luck.

David Brady
'02 LXi, Smokey
NC

Don Bradner wrote:
>
> Some of you may recall that I asked if anyone here had ever had a Ride
> Performance Assessment done on a Bird by Henderson's Lineup in Grant's
> Pass, Oregon. Didn't hear from anyone who had, just one recommendation
> for another place and Tom's very negative view of the idea.
>
> Our first 2K miles or so were mostly freeway, and I would class the
> overall handling/ride on freeways as good. I was therefore surprised
> on our recent trip up the coast of Oregon and Washington at how poorly
> it rode the many washout-dips on 101. Porpoise and sway was the order
> of the day!
>
> I decided that it would be worth the $150 cost of the assessment to
> see what a pro thought, and we took Blue Thunder into Grant's Pass
> this past Wednesday. Their shop foreman did our assessment drive, and
> he did not feel that the ride was exceptionally bad, but did agree
> that it could be better. He recommended, in order of importance:
>
> 1. Adjust the existing front Konis (presumably a replacement by
> another owner) to a stiffer ride.
>
> 2. Add their motion-control units to the air bags.
>
> 3. Replace the original shocks on the rear with Koni FSDs.
>
> The first item turned out to be impossible - the shocks simply would
> not take an adjustment. They tried both on (releasing the bottom end)
> and off the coach on the bench. All they would do was spin. They were
> also very difficult to expand and contract.
>
> Replacing the shocks was not possible on the spot, because of the
> three different part numbers needed (90-2490SP1 in the front,
> 9005-1025 on the drivers, 8805-1010 on the tag) only the 8805 is a
> stock part for them, and the various sources they use, including
> KoniRV, did not have the others in stock either.
>
> Item 2 is an interesting one, and a hard decision. The reason it is
> hard is that you have to pay a lot for some very small parts. The MCUs
> are sold (exclusively so far as I can tell) under Henderson's Steer
> Safe brand, but are made by Donvel. They are about the size of a
> shotgun shell, and their purpose is to allow normal fill-and-dump
> flows to each airbag, but resist sudden flow that occurs when a bag is
> compressed or extended by going over a curb/bump or dropping into a hole.
>
> The most common installation is inline in typical plastic airlines, as
> near the bag as possible. Fairly simple installation, and they run I
> think $185 a pair. For hard-plumbed installations like the Bird, they
> have units that screw into the top of the bag, then the airline is
> attached to the unit. Those are newer designs and run $250 per pair.
>
> I found a few postings on the internet that attested to them working
> well, and none that said they didn't, although there were definite
> gripes about the price!
>
> My tolerance for cost when it comes to ride/handling/safety may be
> higher than most - I decided to go for it. They had 8 of them of the
> necessary size (there are 7 units depending on pipe size and vehicle
> weight), so we did everything but the tags.
>
> We will likely go through there in September and get all of the shocks
> replaced. With a glass-half-full perspective, we are able to evaluate
> the effect of the MCUs with no other changes to the system.
>
> Conclusion: significant reduction in sway. Flatter through corners.
> The most obvious test is a speed bump taken at an angle. Before, when
> the drivers would cross the bump, the coach would rock back and forth
> in a major way, now it just tilts up as one side goes over, then the
> other way as the other side crosses, then back to level.
>
> The run home from Grant's Pass involves US 199 to Crescent City. That
> is about a good a test run for cornering as you can find. I won't say
> the MCUs made the drive fun, but I was a lot less worried about
> bouncing off things than in the past. That will always be a bit of a
> paranoid run for me - I did bounce off a guard-rail in the past on
> that highway in an SOB; I could swear I had enough room, but I rocked
> outward just enough to hit. No scrape, just a linear crease about 20
> feet long.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 6/3/2007 12:47
PM
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Robert Britton]

Don,
I am going to have Henderson's Lineup Install new air bags and new
Koni shocks when I pass through Grants Pass in July.
Are you happy with the service there? I have made phone contact with
them a few times and they seem to be very professional.

Robert Britton
87FC
Hollister, California


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> Some of you may recall that I asked if anyone here had ever had a
Ride Performance Assessment done on a Bird by Henderson's Lineup in
Grant's Pass, Oregon. Didn't hear from anyone who had, just one
recommendation for another place and Tom's very negative view of the
idea.
>
> Our first 2K miles or so were mostly freeway, and I would class the
overall handling/ride on freeways as good. I was therefore surprised
on our recent trip up the coast of Oregon and Washington at how
poorly it rode the many washout-dips on 101. Porpoise and sway was
the order of the day!
>
> I decided that it would be worth the $150 cost of the assessment to
see what a pro thought, and we took Blue Thunder into Grant's Pass
this past Wednesday. Their shop foreman did our assessment drive, and
he did not feel that the ride was exceptionally bad, but did agree
that it could be better. He recommended, in order of importance:
>
> 1. Adjust the existing front Konis (presumably a replacement by
another owner) to a stiffer ride.
>
> 2. Add their motion-control units to the air bags.
>
> 3. Replace the original shocks on the rear with Koni FSDs.
>
> The first item turned out to be impossible - the shocks simply
would not take an adjustment. They tried both on (releasing the
bottom end) and off the coach on the bench. All they would do was
spin. They were also very difficult to expand and contract.
>
> Replacing the shocks was not possible on the spot, because of the
three different part numbers needed (90-2490SP1 in the front, 9005-
1025 on the drivers, 8805-1010 on the tag) only the 8805 is a stock
part for them, and the various sources they use, including KoniRV,
did not have the others in stock either.
>
> Item 2 is an interesting one, and a hard decision. The reason it is
hard is that you have to pay a lot for some very small parts. The
MCUs are sold (exclusively so far as I can tell) under Henderson's
Steer Safe brand, but are made by Donvel. They are about the size of
a shotgun shell, and their purpose is to allow normal fill-and-dump
flows to each airbag, but resist sudden flow that occurs when a bag
is compressed or extended by going over a curb/bump or dropping into
a hole.
>
> The most common installation is inline in typical plastic airlines,
as near the bag as possible. Fairly simple installation, and they run
I think $185 a pair. For hard-plumbed installations like the Bird,
they have units that screw into the top of the bag, then the airline
is attached to the unit. Those are newer designs and run $250 per
pair.
>
> I found a few postings on the internet that attested to them
working well, and none that said they didn't, although there were
definite gripes about the price!
>
> My tolerance for cost when it comes to ride/handling/safety may be
higher than most - I decided to go for it. They had 8 of them of the
necessary size (there are 7 units depending on pipe size and vehicle
weight), so we did everything but the tags.
>
> We will likely go through there in September and get all of the
shocks replaced. With a glass-half-full perspective, we are able to
evaluate the effect of the MCUs with no other changes to the system.
>
> Conclusion: significant reduction in sway. Flatter through corners.
The most obvious test is a speed bump taken at an angle. Before, when
the drivers would cross the bump, the coach would rock back and forth
in a major way, now it just tilts up as one side goes over, then the
other way as the other side crosses, then back to level.
>
> The run home from Grant's Pass involves US 199 to Crescent City.
That is about a good a test run for cornering as you can find. I
won't say the MCUs made the drive fun, but I was a lot less worried
about bouncing off things than in the past. That will always be a bit
of a paranoid run for me - I did bounce off a guard-rail in the past
on that highway in an SOB; I could swear I had enough room, but I
rocked outward just enough to hit. No scrape, just a linear crease
about 20 feet long.
>

[Don Bradner]

Henderson's is a small family operation with a big reputation. They undoubtedly
have some dissatisfied customers somewhere, but I haven't run into any. In the
Safari world that I come out of they are known for innovative solutions to
suspension problems. I don't think they make any of them, but they either seek
or are sought by small manufacturers that have a specific item that Henderson's
then markets, often under the Super Steer name. Tiger Trak anti-sway bars for
Safaris with Velvet Ride (Torsilastic) suspensions is an example. Made by
Pioneer Metal Works, but primarily sold by Henderson's.

The motion control units I got are made by Donvel. I don't know if Donvel sells
them through any other sources, but on their own website at http://www.donvel.com they
are only listing other items (including two that are directly related, but don't
go on the vehicle suspension), so I'm guessing the Super Steer deal may be an
exclusive.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

On 6/5/2007 at 8:26 PM Robert Britton wrote:

>Don,
>I am going to have Henderson's Lineup Install new air bags and new
>Koni shocks when I pass through Grants Pass in July.
>Are you happy with the service there? I have made phone contact with
>them a few times and they seem to be very professional.

[birdshill123]

Henderson's do indeed have an excellent rep. They do quality work. BUT
their prices are in my opinion much too high. Many of their products
are simply reboxed items at outrageous prices. A good example are the
coils springs for the P30 Chev chassis. These are available elsewhere
for less than half. Some of their advertisng borders on being false.
The try to tell owners of Freightliner chassis that the bell cranks are
loose even when new and the only solution is to buy their overpriced
units. I ordered a rear sway bar from them for a Chev chassis and
inside the box was bunch of religious material. That did it for me.
Most major cities have at least one very good alignment shop that does
big trucks. Most will do an alignment for half of the Henderson
charges. Maybe less.

Bruce
1988 FC35