dry camping

[Leroy Eckert]

I see my automatic name posting is not working. So, back to the old way.
Leroy Eckert
1990-WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA
Royale Conversion--Primus converted to Wabasto.

Rob Robinson wrote: Leroy
what coach and year do you have?

On 03/12/2007, Leroy A. Eckert wrote:
>
> John, in my case I have not filled the propane tank in three years. It
> operates the cook top, reefer, and outside grill. It is still half
> full. Up until recently, we used the coach quite often. Heat comes
> from Wabasto, (hot). We (5 of us) can dry camp without significant
> problems operating the genset about 4 hours per day if we are
> conservative. Otherwise, the genset runs longer.
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com,
> "bubblerboy64" > wrote:
> >
> > I had no idea that there even was an RV of any type that did not have
> > propane tanks? Guess that shows how out of touch I am. How about
> > heat in cold conditions? I guess you would certainly be running the
> > generator then? I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.
> > Gasoline or propane. Makes not a lot of difference?
> > John Heckman
> > central Pa
> > 1973 FC
> >
> > > Great explanation of the amp hour figure, Pete. Your refrigerator
> > > shouldn't use that much juice though. If you can keep the door
> > shut
> > > most of the time, it should run about 30% of the time. The duty
> > cycle
> > > goes up a lot if you're fanning the door. Also, the defrost heater
> > > uses a lot of juice when it cycles. It will normally occur once or
> > > twice a day and last for about 12 or 15 minutes. Then the
> > > refrigeration system has to run longer to cool things back off.
> > You
> > > can improve things a lot with a domestic refrigerator by keeping
> > the
> > > condenser coils clean and keeping the doors shut as much as
> > possible.
> > > Also, if there is a switch on its control panel for "humidity
> > > control" or some such, you might want to keep it in the off or
> > normal
> > > or whatever it's labeled position. This is for some electrical
> > > heating elements that are in the mullions around the door openings
> > to
> > > keep them from sweating in high humidity areas. The humidity
> > probably
> > > doesn't get that high inside your coach anyway. They use a fair
> > > amount of electricity 24/7 when turned on. Not a big issue on
> > shore
> > > power, but could be significant when dry camping. A lot of the
> > newer
> > > refrigerators solve the sweating issue by routing the hot gas
> > piping
> > > from the compressor through the mullions before going to the
> > > condenser; that's why you'll notice the mullions feeling hot to
> > the
> > > touch.
> > >
> > > I'd like to see what the actual running amp draw is on one of
> > these.
> > > I work on appliances for a living; maybe I can remember to put an
> > > Amprobe on one and see. I have a digital data logger that I can
> > leave
> > > in a refrigerator for a couple of days and tell you exactly how
> > long
> > > it's running and when it defrosts. Guess I need to find out how
> > much
> > > current it's drawing. Never been an issue in a home, but would be
> > > good to know for when running on batteries.
> > >
> > > Travis, the Newell guy in Lubbock, Texas
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 7:58 PM, Pete Masterson wrote:
> > >
> > > > The primary drain (through the inverters) is the power to the
> > > > refrigerator. It will limit your ability to operate off the grid
> > with
> > > > an all-electric coach. (My '95 is all electric.) Newer
> > refrigerators
> > > > are perhaps a bit more economical to operate than the 22 cu ft 2-
> > door
> > > > Amana that I have in my coach -- but you're likely to experience
> > the
> > > > similar power drain.
> > > >
> > > > For example, I have 6 model 4D AGM-type house batteries. These
> > have
> > > > about 220 amp hours each. So, 6 x 220 = 1320 amp hours. However,
> > > > that's an overstatement of what's available, as you can't deplete
> > the
> > > > battery more than 50% for standard wet cell or by more than 60%
> > for
> > > > AGM batteries. So that would mean there's between 660 and 792 amp
> > > > hours available from the battery to power all the 120 volt systems
> > > > that are serviced by the inverters. (I have two, 2500 watt
> > > > inverters.) Also, don't forget that the inverters cause a loss
> > (10%
> > > > or more) while changing the 12 vdc to 120 vac. Don't forget that
> > amps
> > > > X volts = watts. So, a 1000 watt refrigerator is about 8.3 amps at
> > > > 120 v per hour. Convert that to 12 vdc, and its about 83 amps.
> > With
> > > > the inverter loss, that's about 95 or 100 amps (per hour while the
> > > > refrigerator is running)... so that suggests about 6 to 8 hours or
> > > > perhaps 10 hours of operation (since it doesn't run 100% of the
> > time)
> > > > just for the refrigerator. Add the microwave (high draw, but short
> > > > period) plus the various lights and the 12 volt stuff... and then
> > you
> > > > can see that the batteries are kind of limiting!
> > > >
> > > > Here's where you have to do some math. First figure out the
> > > > approximate hourly draw in amps of each appliance that runs on 120
> > > > volts. Don't forget that _some_ of the lights run on 120 volts and
> > > > are powered by the inverters. Of course, all 12 volt items and
> > > > appliances also draw from the batteries. So, you also have to
> > figure
> > > > out what 12 volt appliances you have operating. Do not ignore the
> > > > draw from the Microphor toilet compressor nor from the air-system
> > > > auxiliary compressor, if you have one (I don't) along with various
> > > > signal lights, etc. etc. -- well, to be honest, there's a _lot_ of
> > > > load on a 'bird and without a source to recharge, the batteries
> > can
> > > > be drawn down to a dangerous level in just a few days, even when
> > > > everything is "off."
> > > >
> > > > So, back to the refrigerator -- the practical situation is to make
> > > > sure your house batteries are fully charged. If you have an
> > isolation
> > > > switch to "turn off" everything, it would help. Anyway, when you
> > > > think your batteries are fully charged, isolate them (and unplug
> > > > shore power), then check the voltage. (This is the "resting"
> > > > voltage.) For AGM batteries, it should be about 12.9 to 13.0 volts
> > > > (wet cell batteries are different). Then, turn on the isolation
> > > > switch (apply the normal load) -- wait and hour, remove the load,
> > and
> > > > check the voltage. 12.4 volts is 50% depletion and 12.25 volts is
> > 60%
> > > > depletion -- do not let the volts drop below 12.25 volts!!! ---
> > this
> > > > is "resting" voltage measured from the battery terminals.
> > > > Measurements drawn from other locations (e.g. a fuse panel) are
> > > > likely to be much lower due to line losses.)
> > > >
> > > > My experience has been that "boondocking" isn't especially
> > practical.
> > > > I can shut down the generator in the evening, but I usually need
> > to
> > > > restart after about 12 hours or so. So, if I shut down at 8:00 PM,
> > > > I'll usually need to start the generator by about 8:00 AM the next
> > > > morning to avoid causing any damage to my batteries. This has
> > caused
> > > > a fair amount of heart burn when I've stayed in a CA state park
> > that
> > > > had a generator operation ban between 8 PM and 10 AM ... those two
> > > > hours were nail biting time and I had to shut down any/all items
> > that
> > > > made demands on the batteries.
> > > >
> > > > My plan (the next time I boondock) is to pull the breakers on the
> > > > inverters perhaps at 10 PM or so, and see how the batteries are
> > the
> > > > next morning. The refrigerator won't warm up much during the
> > night,
> > > > if it is not opened and if we're in a reasonably cool location.
> > > >
> > > > I've compared notes with another all-electric Blue Bird owner
> > (just
> > > > this past weekend at the Lone Star Birds rally in Kerrville, TX)
> > and
> > > > I'm of the impression that my voltage drain seems to be on the
> > high
> > > > side (so I may need to further explore possible reasons).
> > > >
> > > > The reality is that you can probably turn off the generator in the
> > > > evening then turn it back on in the morning without major
> > problems.
> > > > You can run the generator for 3 hours or so to bring the batteries
> > > > back up to full or near full charge. Then you can shut down the
> > > > generator for a few hours, then run it for 3 or 4 hours until the
> > > > time you wish complete quiet at night (or until any required shut
> > > > down time occurs).
> > > >
> > > > The coach can be off the grid without the generator for periods of
> > > > several hours -- but it will need to have power to recover the
> > > > batteries rather more often and/or for longer periods than coaches
> > > > that have LP gas appliances.
> > > >
> > > > See Poop Sheets by Phred at:
> > > > <http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html>
> > > > #5 has a thorough discussion of "electrical stuff."
> > > >
> > > > Pete Masterson
> > > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > > > aeonix1@
> > > > On the road at Lubbock Texas following a great weekend with the
> > Lone
> > > > Star Birds at Kerrville, TX.
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:08 PM, medpro28 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just purchased a 2005 LXi and need some advice on dry camping.
> > I
> > > > cook
> > > > > in bbq contests and sometimes no power or 110 only. Dealer says
> > I
> > > > > will
> > > > > have to use the generator all the time. Although the unit is all
> > > > > electric, will not use the stove top or microwave while camping.
> > > > > It is
> > > > > hard to believe I can't dry camp any length of time and then use
> > > > > generator to keep batteries up.
> > > > > Is the dealers advice right or does anyone have thoughts or
> > > > > suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry Smith
> > > > > 2005 450 LXI
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>

--
Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
94 WLWB

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[Pete Masterson]

The all-electric 'Bird has AquaHot heat. Uses a Webasto burner to
burn diesel -- about 1/2 gal per hour when the burner is operating.
For low-demand use, it has a 2000 watt electric heating element that
operates with shore power or the generator. The AquaHot is a great
hydronic heating system. It also heats the engine water. I switched
on the engine pre-heat at about 5 this AM and when I started up at
about 8:30, the engine kicked over like it was a 95 degree day --
only it was 31 degrees outside having reached a low of 26 during the
early morning hours in Lubbock. The AquaHot also provides
_continuous_ hot water for domestic purposes (think shower). You
never run out of hot water, but if the source water is really cold,
it can get a bit less than ideally hot toward the tail end of a
shower. (Hint: use your onboard tank, it's usually warmer than ground
water.)

You don't need the generator or shore power for the AquaHot -- but
you do pay for the diesel. The advantage is that you gotta fill the
tank anyway, so it's no extra trouble (there is a small Racor filter,
but it's never given any trouble and gets an annual replacement).

Of course, with diesel at $3.39/gal at some stations I saw today
(Flying J in Amarillo was $3.21) it now costs about $1.60 to $1.80
per hour to operate the Webasto burner.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Lamar Colorado after a long day from Lubbock...



On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:56 PM, bubblerboy64 wrote:

> I had no idea that there even was an RV of any type that did not have
> propane tanks? Guess that shows how out of touch I am. How about
> heat in cold conditions? I guess you would certainly be running the
> generator then? I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.
> Gasoline or propane. Makes not a lot of difference?
> John Heckman
> central Pa
> 1973 FC
>
>
>
<snip>

[Kurt Horvath]

Pete,

If your 95 is all electric what did you do with your propane tank? That area
could be opened up like the forward bay. Just a thought Oh boy another
project!

I should have asked if your coach was born all electric.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT 42
10AC


----- Original Message ----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 5:48:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: dry camping

The all-electric 'Bird has AquaHot heat. Uses a Webasto burner to
burn diesel -- about 1/2 gal per hour when the burner is operating.
For low-demand use, it has a 2000 watt electric heating element that
operates with shore power or the generator. The AquaHot is a great
hydronic heating system. It also heats the engine water. I switched
on the engine pre-heat at about 5 this AM and when I started up at
about 8:30, the engine kicked over like it was a 95 degree day --
only it was 31 degrees outside having reached a low of 26 during the
early morning hours in Lubbock. The AquaHot also provides
_continuous_ hot water for domestic purposes (think shower). You
never run out of hot water, but if the source water is really cold,
it can get a bit less than ideally hot toward the tail end of a
shower. (Hint: use your onboard tank, it's usually warmer than ground
water.)

You don't need the generator or shore power for the AquaHot -- but
you do pay for the diesel. The advantage is that you gotta fill the
tank anyway, so it's no extra trouble (there is a small Racor filter,
but it's never given any trouble and gets an annual replacement) .

Of course, with diesel at $3.39/gal at some stations I saw today
(Flying J in Amarillo was $3.21) it now costs about $1.60 to $1.80
per hour to operate the Webasto burner.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@mac. com
On the road at Lamar Colorado after a long day from Lubbock...

On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:56 PM, bubblerboy64 wrote:

> I had no idea that there even was an RV of any type that did not have
> propane tanks? Guess that shows how out of touch I am. How about
> heat in cold conditions? I guess you would certainly be running the
> generator then? I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.
> Gasoline or propane. Makes not a lot of difference?
> John Heckman
> central Pa
> 1973 FC
>
>
>
<snip>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Leroy Eckert]

While I don't search out cold weather to test the limits of my Wabasto, I have
been in some pretty cold weather in NC. One time the temp was in the teens and I
found that I can run my system, 12v circulation pump and circulation fans while
sleeping , for about 10 hours before I needed shore power or the genset.
I have it set for 50 degrees tonight just for precautionary purposes while it is
in the driveway. I expect it to be in the low 20's this evening.
It is difficult to determine just how much fuel the thing uses because it does
not burn constantly. I suspect much less than the book of 1/2 gallon per
hour.(stated if the burner burns constantly)
For info, 1/2 of my system is Aquahot, the rest is Wabasto. The circulation pump
is from Aquahot, manufactured by MP Pumps,Tecumseh Products Company, Frazier,
MI. I just changed one out. Is it a school bus two wire pump. I have not
received the invoice yet but suspect I will contact MP direct if it craps out
again.
Don't know why it failed. It is three years old.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA
Royale Conversion

Pete Masterson wrote: The
all-electric 'Bird has AquaHot heat. Uses a Webasto burner to
burn diesel -- about 1/2 gal per hour when the burner is operating.
For low-demand use, it has a 2000 watt electric heating element that
operates with shore power or the generator. The AquaHot is a great
hydronic heating system. It also heats the engine water. I switched
on the engine pre-heat at about 5 this AM and when I started up at
about 8:30, the engine kicked over like it was a 95 degree day --
only it was 31 degrees outside having reached a low of 26 during the
early morning hours in Lubbock. The AquaHot also provides
_continuous_ hot water for domestic purposes (think shower). You
never run out of hot water, but if the source water is really cold,
it can get a bit less than ideally hot toward the tail end of a
shower. (Hint: use your onboard tank, it's usually warmer than ground
water.)

You don't need the generator or shore power for the AquaHot -- but
you do pay for the diesel. The advantage is that you gotta fill the
tank anyway, so it's no extra trouble (there is a small Racor filter,
but it's never given any trouble and gets an annual replacement).

Of course, with diesel at $3.39/gal at some stations I saw today
(Flying J in Amarillo was $3.21) it now costs about $1.60 to $1.80
per hour to operate the Webasto burner.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Lamar Colorado after a long day from Lubbock...

On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:56 PM, bubblerboy64 wrote:

> I had no idea that there even was an RV of any type that did not have
> propane tanks? Guess that shows how out of touch I am. How about
> heat in cold conditions? I guess you would certainly be running the
> generator then? I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.
> Gasoline or propane. Makes not a lot of difference?
> John Heckman
> central Pa
> 1973 FC
>
>
>
<snip>





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[Pete Masterson]

My coach does not have nor has it ever had a propane tank on board.
We have a bowling alley in the basement.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Golden Colorado



On Dec 3, 2007, at 5:22 PM, Kurt Horvath wrote:

> Pete,
>
> If your 95 is all electric what did you do with your propane tank?
> That area could be opened up like the forward bay. Just a thought
> Oh boy another project!
>
> I should have asked if your coach was born all electric.
>
> Kurt Horvath
> 95 PT 42
> 10AC

[erniecarpet@...]

In a message dated 12/12/2007 4:19:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
medpro@... writes:

BBq contest.

Jerry Smith
2005 450 LXi
Sarasota, Fl.



Jerry- we are having a mini rally the 1st weekend in Jan at our place. So--
bring some of that "Q" up this way!

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Weatherford, Tx




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[medpro28]

I am the one that posted the initial question on dry camping and I
posted on both Wanderlodge sites. I realize that it is hard to respond
definitely when all of the BB's or so different. I never did get a
satisfactory response, but I am not blaming anyone. I now believe I
will have to use trial and error to see where I end up. I do
appreciate all the responses and hope to see you down the road or at a
BBq contest.

Jerry Smith
2005 450 LXi
Sarasota, Fl.

[JERRY SMITH]

Ernie, thanks for the invite,but I am still working so I have to pick my
spots carefully.

Jerry

-------Original Message-------

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: 12/12/07 17:33:57
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] dry camping


In a message dated 12/12/2007 4:19:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
medpro@... writes:

BBq contest.

Jerry Smith
2005 450 LXi
Sarasota, Fl.

Jerry- we are having a mini rally the 1st weekend in Jan at our place. So--
bring some of that "Q" up this way!

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Weatherford, Tx

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NC...0000000004)

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[Ross MacKillop]

Hi Jerry,
The cooling fans are on separate adjustable thermostat controls. The easiest one
to see is in the bay with the inverters. It is about 2.5 inches by 1 inch and
has an adjust screw on it. When the bay is fairly cool, turn it slightly lower
temp to shut the fan off. If the bay gets warm, it will come back on to prevent
heat damage but 90 degrees shouldn't hurt.
There are 2 more fans that are on both sides of the tv. The one on the left can
be seen behind the amp. and can possibly be reached with a long screwdriver and
thin arm. The one on the right requires TV out. A pain and Blue Bird did that
one. There is another fan in the back AV area and it has a manual switch. On
the roof you will see (and hear ) the cooling fans. I think that during
installation the thermistors were just set to the lowest temperature.
All three ems panels should light when on shore power as should the green light
indicting 50 amp on the upper ems. I don't think it is on with the genni, but my
memory is short. I'll let you know later.
Blue Bird had to correct some screwed up wiring back there. The breakers were
listed wrong and their connections to the EMS panels was incorrect.
Parliament gamely tried but Blue Bird had to sort out these original assembly
problems. Fort Valley BB was great.
As for the slide fan and inverter?. Don't know why it runs all the time but will
find out. The breaker solves the problem for now- just dumb.

In Florida (Clearwater area) for most of April. At Blue Bird late March or
early April

Ross

----- Original Message ----
From: JERRY SMITH <MEDPRO@...>
To: rjmackillop@...
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:43:34 AM
Subject: Re: dry camping








Ross, don't know how to adjust cooling fans, they run all the time. I shut the
slide breaker off. The 50 amp ems in the bedroom does not light up at all. I
was just at Parliament and asked about it. They indicated you had some problem
similar and had to go to Fort Valley. Do you know anything about this? Also
are you going to be at Parliament anytime soon? If you show up let know and I
will come up to compare notes.



Jerry



-------Original Message-------




From: Ross MacKillop

Date: 12/12/07 20:01:08

To: medpro@...

Subject: dry camping




Hi Jerry,

I am feeling better about the dry camping. Did you get the cooling fans shutting
down at reasonable temperatures. Turn off TV's (no lights) and dvd etc.

I flip off the electric braker switch for slides (shuts off fan and heat in
left bay).

Ross









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[JERRY SMITH]

Ross, thanks for the poop. It's to bad this information is not readily
available from the dealer or manual. It sounds like I will need to go to Ft
Valley to get this EMS panel straightened out. I am going to try adjust
these fans per your instructions. Send me an email when you are in
Clearwater and I'll stop by.

Jerry

-------Original Message-------

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: 12/13/07 12:20:42
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: dry camping

Hi Jerry,
The cooling fans are on separate adjustable thermostat controls. The easiest
one to see is in the bay with the inverters. It is about 2.5 inches by 1
inch and has an adjust screw on it. When the bay is fairly cool, turn it
slightly lower temp to shut the fan off. If the bay gets warm, it will come
back on to prevent heat damage but 90 degrees shouldn't hurt.
There are 2 more fans that are on both sides of the tv. The one on the left
can be seen behind the amp. and can possibly be reached with a long
screwdriver and thin arm. The one on the right requires TV out. A pain and
Blue Bird did that one. There is another fan in the back AV area and it has
a manual switch. On the roof you will see (and hear ) the cooling fans. I
think that during installation the thermistors were just set to the lowest
temperature.
All three ems panels should light when on shore power as should the green
light indicting 50 amp on the upper ems. I don't think it is on with the
genni, but my memory is short. I'll let you know later.
Blue Bird had to correct some screwed up wiring back there. The breakers
were listed wrong and their connections to the EMS panels was incorrect.
Parliament gamely tried but Blue Bird had to sort out these original
assembly problems. Fort Valley BB was great.
As for the slide fan and inverter?. Don't know why it runs all the time but
will find out. The breaker solves the problem for now- just dumb.

In Florida (Clearwater area) for most of April. At Blue Bird late March or
early April

Ross

----- Original Message ----
From: JERRY SMITH <MEDPRO@...>
To: rjmackillop@...
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:43:34 AM
Subject: Re: dry camping

Ross, don't know how to adjust cooling fans, they run all the time. I shut
the slide breaker off. The 50 amp ems in the bedroom does not light up at
all. I was just at Parliament and asked about it. They indicated you had
some problem similar and had to go to Fort Valley. Do you know anything
about this? Also are you going to be at Parliament anytime soon? If you show
up let know and I will come up to compare notes.

Jerry

-------Original Message-------

From: Ross MacKillop

Date: 12/12/07 20:01:08

To: medpro@...

Subject: dry camping

Hi Jerry,

I am feeling better about the dry camping. Did you get the cooling fans
shutting down at reasonable temperatures. Turn off TV's (no lights) and dvd
etc.

I flip off the electric braker switch for slides (shuts off fan and heat in
left bay).

Ross

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