Residential fridges

[Ross MacKillop]

Hi Pete,
Aren't the charger settings for AGM the same as Lead/acid.? (not like Gel)
The new 450 LXi has a single smaller inverter for the fridge (1500 true sine wave.) I turn the 2, 3600 watt ones off and turn the fridge down(really up) for night.
Ross
Palm Desert

.. (Note: this occurred with the original batteries that had been improperly charged and weren't able to hold their
charge.)

-.....................

- Six model 4D AGM-type batteries supply the house systems. These are rated at 220 amp hours each. Model 4D batteries are very large (and in AGM fairly expensive). A set of 6 cost nearly $2000, delivered. While the previous owner had replaced them, so the batteries with the coach weren't more than about 2 years old, the controller had been reset to default (wet cell assumed) and had overcharged them for the 6 months while the coach was in various dealer's hands. As received, the house batteries weren't holding their charge, as expected, so had to be replaced.

..........

*I've come to realize that the refrigerator/ inverters can be turned off during the night to help preserve the batteries. If the refrigerator isn't being opened, it will hold its temperature with minimal rise for several hours. Turning off the inverters will remove the overhead load they add ... then only 12v system
would be available (mostly lights) but that would be sufficient. I haven't had an opportunity to try this, yet, to see just how effective it might be to lengthening the time before the batteries need to be charged.

I believe that the situation would be slightly better with a up-to-date refrigerator -- but the essential problem is that the refrigeration is the major battery draw and even the newest, most efficient refrigerator may not offer _that_ much improvement over the originally installed unit, which was a relatively decent performer for its time.

Indeed, the electric cooktop is more of a boondocking problem than the refrigerator, since 120 vac power is an absolute requirement to operate it, whether from the generator or shore power.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:28 PM, birdshill123 wrote:

House type fridges are becoming more prevelant all the time.<snip>

When

looking at some BB's advertised on the net I see some mid 90's units

with house fridges. These are older fridges and not super efficient. I

would like to hear from BB owners with this option? Are you pleased

with the fridge? Do you have problesm when boondocking for a few days?

What does BB supply for battery power and invereter size with this

option? Any problems?

<snip>

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[Tim Hannink]

I replaced my old refrigerator with a Summit FF1110W
(http://www.summitappliance.com/detail/r68#). It draws 1.2 amps AC
(25-30 amps DC) when running and will run about 30% of the time in
90F weather. These units are very well made. I paid
around $750 delivered.

Mine fit in my FC well; I added 3-sheets of 3/4" styrofoam on the
sides to make up for the difference in width.
(http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/F...s/view/d29
a?b=27) The photo is in the FC_Wanderlodge Yahoo group if the link
doesn't work.

It performs as well as my home unit; my old unit couldn't keep ice
cream frozen; this unit has no problem doing that. Another bonus is
that it is frost-free. I did have to make a door lock for it, but I
am very happy with this unit and would recommend it highly.

Good luck,

TJ Hannink
1981 FC-33SB
1987 Vanagon Camper
Des Allemands, LA (happy Mardi Gras is over :>)

[Pete Masterson]

Nope... AGMs must be charged at a lower voltage to avoid damage. I note that the Link 2000R would float at about 13.5 volts with the wet cell setting, but floats at 12.9 volts with the AGMs. (The charging rate is preprogramed -- you simply (well, it's not _that_ simple) set the kind (wet, AGM, gel cell) and the battery size (amp hour rating) into the controller and it chooses to do whatever it is it does.)

The dual inverters in my coach have 4 breakers that control what they serve. I've not gone to the trouble to figure out what each breaker serves individually.

I can see the advantage of having a smaller, true sine wave (my inverters are modified sine wave, which is less efficient for the refrigerator) dedicated to the refrigerator. 

While parked in Oregon, I checked temperatures in the refrigerator during the day (when the generator was unusable) and it took about 6 hours for the interior to get into the 'danger' zone on the refrigerator thermometer I use.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:56 PM, Ross MacKillop wrote:

Hi Pete,
Aren't the charger settings for AGM the same as  Lead/acid.? (not like Gel)
The new 450 LXi has a single smaller inverter for the fridge (1500 true sine wave.) I turn the 2, 3600 watt ones off and turn the fridge down(really up) for night.
Ross
Palm Desert

..<snip>

[ronmarabito2002]

Most coaches couldn't take them because they are too wide. You would
have some serious remodeling to do.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, tX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> Talking with a friend today about refrigerators and he was saying
that he would go electric if he could get efficient enough, so I
mentioned Sun Frost. Anybody ever hear of one in an RV? (I haven't)
>
> http://www.sunfrost.com/refrigerator_specs.html
>
> 10 cubic feet drawing 1 amp per hour, average, at 12 volts at 70
degrees. 1.6 amps at 90 degrees.
>
> I know a guy who had them build, for his house, a walk-in freezer
that runs nicely on his combo of wind/sun/hydro on a ranch.
>
> Don Bradner
> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> Posting today by satellite from Quartzsite
>

[ronmarabito2002]

Pete: We have the Primus system for heat. Doesn't use much power at
all. A pump and a fan. The fan can be turned off. The hydronic heat
is great. With a 95 coach, you should not have a furnace. What do
you have?

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> I'm blessed/cursed with an all-electric coach (no LP gas on board).
>
> Blessed:
> - Huge 22 cu ft home-style double-door side-by-side refrigerator with
> ice maker (and through the door chilled water/ice dispenser). Large
> freezer capacity. Very convenient. (Wife is happy -- that's worth a
> _lot_.)
> - No LP gas to deal with -- no fuel lines, no leaks, no tanks to
> 'recertify' (or argue about), no extra fuel stops.
> - No cooking fumes and related vents -- less cold can penetrate in
> winter/snow country situations.
> - Microwave/convection oven. Microwave runs from inverter when other
> power isn't available. Convection setting also runs from inverter,
> but is not advisable, due to heavy current load. Microwave draw is
> significant, but most items are heated in a rather short time, so the
> power used isn't excessive.
>
> Curse:
> - Must have shore power or generator to operate cook-top to prepare
> meals. This has proved to be a problem in California State Parks
> where a "quiet time" policy runs from 8PM to 10AM every day. Less of
> a problem in other boondocking situations where the generator may be
> run as late as 10PM and after 8AM. (I also don't have a problem
> turning on the generator at 6AM in a Walmart parking lot, especially
> if we're far from neighboring homes, etc.)
> - Refrigerator pulls down batteries fairly quickly. Batteries are
> drawn down to recharge point after only about 10 to 12 hours. Usually
> not a problem, as power is needed to run the cook top (to prepare
> breakfast). My usual approach is to run the generator for breakfast
> (for a couple hours to charge up the batteries) then again at dinner
> (starting a bit early if the batteries appear to be 'down' before our
> regular dinner time). Quiet again -- then run for a couple hours in
> the evening up to the start of quiet time so the batteries will be as
> fully charged as possible for the overnight period. However, with the
> extended "quiet time" in CA State Parks, it _is_ a problem. A
> February stay in a coastal park was very unpleasant (and cold) in the
> morning waiting for quiet time to end. The batteries were so low that
> we had to turn off all unnecessary loads, including the _heat_ as the
> fans and pumps in the AquaHot system use the battery power... (Note:
> this occurred with the original batteries that had been improperly
> charged and weren't able to hold their charge.)
> - Refrigerator replacement will be very difficult and expensive,
> including the need to remove a window to move old and new
> refrigerators in/out of the coach. (Refrigerator had freon
> "recharged" by the previous owner, but from the amount it runs, it
> may need further attention or replacement.)
> - Electric cooktop is only 120 volts -- so it's a little slow to heat
> up. It does, eventually, get as hot as 'normal' electric ranges. This
> is a minor problem and a matter of simply adjusting cooking technique
> to accommodate.
> - Inadvertent use of convection oven while on inverter can draw down
> the house batteries in a flash!
> (Not a problem as we rarely use the convection feature.)
>
> Support systems:
> - Coach has dual 2500 watt inverters. The previous owner upgraded the
> inverters and controller to (newer) Heart Freedom inverters with Link
> 2000R controller. (The original Inverters were also Heart Freedom.)
> - Six model 4D AGM-type batteries supply the house systems. These are
> rated at 220 amp hours each. Model 4D batteries are very large (and
> in AGM fairly expensive). A set of 6 cost nearly $2000, delivered.
> While the previous owner had replaced them, so the batteries with the
> coach weren't more than about 2 years old, the controller had been
> reset to default (wet cell assumed) and had overcharged them for the
> 6 months while the coach was in various dealer's hands. As received,
> the house batteries weren't holding their charge, as expected, so had
> to be replaced.
> - 15kw PowerTech generator. It's fairly solid and has good
> performance. It's able to provide the full 50 amp power required to
> run all systems normally without serious worry about load management.
> Once, I had a problem while "boondocking" at a vendor who was
> installing some new cabinetry. The generator cooling fan for the
> radiator failed... and I had no power to recharge the batteries.
> Eventually, I had to run the main engine to run the alternator to
> keep the batteries up and the refrigerator cold. (The Link 2000R
> manages the output of the engine alternator to control proper battery
> charging.) While the replacement batteries are better than the
> mistreated AGMs, they're not _significantly_ better.
>
> Opinion:
> - This coach is not that pleasant to boondock with -- it's possible,
> but it requires somewhat more planning* to ensure that batteries
> aren't allowed to run down. (If it were possible to have a couple
> more batteries, I'd add them -- but there's no space.) Most of the
> time I seek an RV park or other place where I can get shore power,
> even for single overnight stops -- just to not have to listen to the
> generator so much... (We also use an electric blanket to minimize
> using the furnace during the night -- and that is most certainly not
> an item to run from the inverter, even though the net power use isn't
> that high.)
>
> *I've come to realize that the refrigerator/inverters can be turned
> off during the night to help preserve the batteries. If the
> refrigerator isn't being opened, it will hold its temperature with
> minimal rise for several hours. Turning off the inverters will remove
> the overhead load they add ... then only 12v system would be
> available (mostly lights) but that would be sufficient. I haven't had
> an opportunity to try this, yet, to see just how effective it might
> be to lengthening the time before the batteries need to be charged.
>
> I believe that the situation would be slightly better with a up-to-
> date refrigerator -- but the essential problem is that the
> refrigeration is the major battery draw and even the newest, most
> efficient refrigerator may not offer _that_ much improvement over the
> originally installed unit, which was a relatively decent performer
> for its time.
>
> Indeed, the electric cooktop is more of a boondocking problem than
> the refrigerator, since 120 vac power is an absolute requirement to
> operate it, whether from the generator or shore power.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:28 PM, birdshill123 wrote:
>
> > House type fridges are becoming more prevelant all the time.<snip>
>
> > When
> > looking at some BB's advertised on the net I see some mid 90's units
> > with house fridges. These are older fridges and not super efficient. I
> > would like to hear from BB owners with this option? Are you pleased
> > with the fridge? Do you have problesm when boondocking for a few days?
> > What does BB supply for battery power and invereter size with this
> > option? Any problems?
> > <snip>
>

[Pete Masterson]

I have some double-sided velcro (used to manage computer cords), looping  a couple of those through the handles on the side-by-side doors 'locks' the doors quite well. BB (I presume) had added a couple of latches similar to ones used on cabinet doors, but they weren't really strong enough to hold the doors closed, especially when a gallon of milk slides forward on an inside shelf and hits the door. (Experience talking -- and it was a mess to clean up.)

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Feb 6, 2008, at 5:35 PM, "erniecarpet@aol.com" wrote:

In a message dated 2/6/2008 7:29:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, "tjhannink@yahoo.com" writes:

I did have to make a door lock for it

TJ, on my residential type, I attack a bungee cord over the door to keep everything from spilling out.

 

[Pete Masterson]

I have the AquaHot. Diesel fired (Webasto burner) -- but it uses pumps to move the hot water around -- and there are little 'pancake' fans on the radiators located around the coach. The power use isn't substantial ... but it does use some power. And, when the batteries are down to 12.2 volts, you don't want to draw them any lower...

Of course, I also have a couple of Perfectoe electric heaters in the galley and bathroom. Those require the generator...

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Feb 6, 2008, at 5:46 PM, ronmarabito2002 wrote:

Pete:  We have the Primus system for heat.  Doesn't use much power at

all.  A pump and a fan.  The fan can be turned off.  The hydronic heat

is great.  With a 95 coach, you should not have a furnace.  What do

you have?

<snip>

[Jack & Donna Smith]

The residential type sound good.. I dont have any experience with a
replacment, but several years ago, our Dometic crapped out in the
first week of a 2 month trip. Emergency time! We went to Home Depot
and bought a 2.5cuft Bar type. Strapped it to the dinette table with
a motorcycle tiedown, and economised on the cold items. It got us
through our trip, by 110v hookups in KOAs and running the gennie.
Worked OK till we got home, and were able to replace the Dometic.
Jack & Donna Smith
1973FC31
SoCal


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "birdshill123"
wrote:
>
> House type fridges are becoming more prevelant all the time. Having
> owned a ton of RV's over the years with propane units I can certainly
> see why. The propane fridges have a short life span, are very
> expensive, lots of board problems, expensive to repair, cooling
> troubles when not level or in extreme heat and small interiors. Modern
> refrigerators are very energy efficient and do not need the starting
> current of yesteryear. I was told by an upper level mgr. at Fleetwood
> that they expect Dometic and Norcold will have house type fridges in
> the near future as they are loosing sales to domestic mfrs. When
> looking at some BB's advertised on the net I see some mid 90's units
> with house fridges. These are older fridges and not super efficient. I
> would like to hear from BB owners with this option? Are you pleased
> with the fridge? Do you have problesm when boondocking for a few days?
> What does BB supply for battery power and invereter size with this
> option? Any problems?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
> 1988 FC35
>

[Don Bradner]

Pete, I note that in the past you've said similar things, and suggested they
were the reason your batteries were shot when you purchased your Bird.

Having purchased a new RV in the past with shot batteries I understand that is
not uncommon to find bad batteries at purchase. Salesmen are very poor at
leaving coaches hooked up, and they routinely run the batteries to full
discharge (10.5 volts or so); no battery likes that very much. Your coach sat on
at least two lots prior to your purchase, and that's a possible explanation, but
not charge voltages.

I think if you review the Link 2000 manual you will find that what you quote
below is AGM float at 120 degrees, and Liquid float at 70 degrees. Apples and
Oranges.

At 70 degrees, Wet-Cells are 13.5, and AGM 13.3. At 80 degrees they float at an
identical 13.1. Nowhere is there enough difference to damage an AGM with
wet-cell settings, and AGM manufacturers generally don't make strenuous pleas
for owners to have programmable controllers - the difference will at most be a
small amount of battery life.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Posting today by satellite with AGM power in Quartzsite, letting the voltage
drop to 11.9 before charging (by choice)

On 2/6/2008 at 5:34 PM Pete Masterson wrote:

>Nope... AGMs must be charged at a lower voltage to avoid damage. I
>note that the Link 2000R would float at about 13.5 volts with the wet
>cell setting, but floats at 12.9 volts with the AGMs. (The charging
>rate is preprogramed -- you simply (well, it's not _that_ simple) set
>the kind (wet, AGM, gel cell) and the battery size (amp hour rating)
>into the controller and it chooses to do whatever it is it does.)
>
>The dual inverters in my coach have 4 breakers that control what they
>serve. I've not gone to the trouble to figure out what each breaker
>serves individually.
>
>I can see the advantage of having a smaller, true sine wave (my
>inverters are modified sine wave, which is less efficient for the
>refrigerator) dedicated to the refrigerator.
>
>While parked in Oregon, I checked temperatures in the refrigerator
>during the day (when the generator was unusable) and it took about 6
>hours for the interior to get into the 'danger' zone on the
>refrigerator thermometer I use.
>
>Pete Masterson
>'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
>El Sobrante CA
>aeonix1@...
>
>
>
>On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:56 PM, Ross MacKillop wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Pete,
>> Aren't the charger settings for AGM the same as Lead/acid.? (not
>> like Gel)
>> The new 450 LXi has a single smaller inverter for the fridge (1500
>> true sine wave.) I turn the 2, 3600 watt ones off and turn the
>> fridge down(really up) for night.
>> Ross
>> Palm Desert
>> ..<snip>

[Gregory OConnor]

I wanted a 110ac refer but RobR pointed out that his refer works
great after 15 years. I set out to learn what makes cold from a gas
flame and understand more about my LP/Ammonia refer in the hopes
that understanding the dynamics can help with issues and operation.
My first misconception was that when the LP refer was run on 110ac,
a compressor took over. I now know that on 110ac power, the 110
runs a heater that boils the ammonia just like the Lp gas flame
did.

Then I wanted to learn why high end full door ammonia refers outlive
the small camper squarbox camp refers. It seem not to be that the
refers in the high end coaches were better built , I think it is
they last because they are taller.

The lp amonia refers have problems when they are run out of level.
I understand that gravity is a necessary force in moving the ammonia
through the gassing process. The slope of the tubes in back of the
lp refer are designed to keep the ammonia in motion. If the ammonia
stops moving because of out of level, the boiler may cook a blockage
in the tubes. On the road the slosh of travel overcomes the out of
level effect. A taller refer has a longer slope therefor less chance
that minor out of level operation will hold processing ammonia stale
in the pipes. likewise a short camper box refer would have less
elevation to make a slope and require greater attention to keep
ammonia flowing??????????

I like using the lp ammonia refer while drycamping but I wish they
made a hybrid AmmoniaBoiler/FreonCompressor refrig. It seems that
compressing freon has to be safer and more efficient than boiling
ammonia??


GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa