Somewhat perplexed, non-understanding

[Chet Geist]

Ralph,

"Amen" and don't forget you can't find many parts for a Bluebird at Wal-Mart, Radio Shack, Pep Boysor Sams you need to go to a truck type parts store.

Chet Geist

Almost all original 1981 FC33, Austin, Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph L. Fullenwider
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 9:44 AM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Somewhat perplexed, non-understanding

Good morning everyone:

Charolette and I are just back in from a nice 9 day camping spree on the
Blue River trout stream, one of several in Oklahoma, but was almost totally
out of touch as it is a cell phone and Internet dead area.

I get a little confused some times with some of the threads on the Forum. I
some times wonder why someone would take a good high line Motor Coach and
turn it into junk. I mean it is ok with the SOB's perhaps, they are not
going to live longer than 10 years, as a rule of thumb anyway. But to just
change a well designed and engineered system because a little work in
finding the parts or simply removing a part, clean and lube it and re
install for another 20 year working period, I just don't get it.

Yes, I do understand a part being obsolete, thus a change needing to be
made by finding another part type that will work with the orig. system,
thus keeping the Coach engineered integrity in tact! So many safety systems
are by passed or removed that were designed into a system to save a Family
from being blown up because of live steam in a hot water system or an LP
system safety by passed as a permanent fix because a sensor goes bad on a
board some where.

The 3 way valve at the bottom of the water heater has a purpose, there was
not a by-pass winterizing system added by the Factory because the Bird does
not need it, that is what the built in designed air blow out system is for.
If one follows the manual, which someone took the time at the Factory to
put together for we owners, most of the systems in these beautiful Coaches
make sense and are understandable.

Then I also wonder if changes that are made are documented for the next guy
who has the Coach because he is going to be like so many on this Forum has
been, asking questions like "how does this or that system work?" "where do
I get the parts or find the parts to up grand or bring it back to
original?" Sound familiar?

Yes I am venting in a way, but it is a venting from simply trying to
understand how a professed top of the line Motor Coach, have the very
systems that made it "Top of the Line" in the first place, simply torn out,
by passed, do for, second best type of work done on them, can be documented
and or professed as to being "the way to go" unless you have sat down with
design engineers and designed the system or at the very least, taken the
time to go through the documented diagrams, sat down to fully understand
the system in question to the point that you can write a "sequence of
operation" for that system.

Come on guys if it is worth doing at all, then it is worth doing right the
first time.

Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma

[Ralph L. Fullenwider]

Good morning everyone:

Charolette and I are just back in from a nice 9 day camping spree on the
Blue River trout stream, one of several in Oklahoma, but was almost totally
out of touch as it is a cell phone and Internet dead area.

I get a little confused some times with some of the threads on the Forum. I
some times wonder why someone would take a good high line Motor Coach and
turn it into junk. I mean it is ok with the SOB's perhaps, they are not
going to live longer than 10 years, as a rule of thumb anyway. But to just
change a well designed and engineered system because a little work in
finding the parts or simply removing a part, clean and lube it and re
install for another 20 year working period, I just don't get it.

Yes, I do understand a part being obsolete, thus a change needing to be
made by finding another part type that will work with the orig. system,
thus keeping the Coach engineered integrity in tact! So many safety systems
are by passed or removed that were designed into a system to save a Family
from being blown up because of live steam in a hot water system or an LP
system safety by passed as a permanent fix because a sensor goes bad on a
board some where.

The 3 way valve at the bottom of the water heater has a purpose, there was
not a by-pass winterizing system added by the Factory because the Bird does
not need it, that is what the built in designed air blow out system is for.
If one follows the manual, which someone took the time at the Factory to
put together for we owners, most of the systems in these beautiful Coaches
make sense and are understandable.

Then I also wonder if changes that are made are documented for the next guy
who has the Coach because he is going to be like so many on this Forum has
been, asking questions like "how does this or that system work?" "where do
I get the parts or find the parts to up grand or bring it back to
original?" Sound familiar?

Yes I am venting in a way, but it is a venting from simply trying to
understand how a professed top of the line Motor Coach, have the very
systems that made it "Top of the Line" in the first place, simply torn out,
by passed, do for, second best type of work done on them, can be documented
and or professed as to being "the way to go" unless you have sat down with
design engineers and designed the system or at the very least, taken the
time to go through the documented diagrams, sat down to fully understand
the system in question to the point that you can write a "sequence of
operation" for that system.

Come on guys if it is worth doing at all, then it is worth doing right the
first time.

Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma

[Wallace Craig]

AMEN!!!

Wallace Craig

"Ralph L. Fullenwider" wrote:

Good morning everyone:

Charolette and I are just back in from a nice 9 day camping spree on the
Blue River trout stream, one of several in Oklahoma, but was almost totally
out of touch as it is a cell phone and Internet dead area.

I get a little confused some times with some of the threads on the Forum. I
some times wonder why someone would take a good high line Motor Coach and
turn it into junk. I mean it is ok with the SOB's perhaps, they are not
going to live longer than 10 years, as a rule of thumb anyway. But to just
change a well designed and engineered system because a little work in
finding the parts or simply removing a
part, clean and lube it and re
install for another 20 year working period, I just don't get it.

Yes, I do understand a part being obsolete, thus a change needing to be
made by finding another part type that will work with the orig. system,
thus keeping the Coach engineered integrity in tact! So many safety systems
are by passed or removed that were designed into a system to save a Family
from being blown up because of live steam in a hot water system or an LP
system safety by passed as a permanent fix because a sensor goes bad on a
board some where.

The 3 way valve at the bottom of the water heater has a purpose, there was
not a by-pass winterizing system added by the Factory because the Bird does
not need it, that is what the built in designed air blow out system is for.
If one follows the manual, which someone took the time at the Factory to
put together for we owners, most of the systems in these beautiful
Coaches
make sense and are understandable.

Then I also wonder if changes that are made are documented for the next guy
who has the Coach because he is going to be like so many on this Forum has
been, asking questions like "how does this or that system work?" "where do
I get the parts or find the parts to up grand or bring it back to
original?" Sound familiar?

Yes I am venting in a way, but it is a venting from simply trying to
understand how a professed top of the line Motor Coach, have the very
systems that made it "Top of the Line" in the first place, simply torn out,
by passed, do for, second best type of work done on them, can be documented
and or professed as to being "the way to go" unless you have sat down with
design engineers and designed the system or at the very least, taken the
time to go through the documented diagrams, sat down to fully understand
the system in question to the point that you can
write a "sequence of
operation" for that system.

Come on guys if it is worth doing at all, then it is worth doing right the
first time.

Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma


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Wallace Craig

95 WLWB 42

Azle, Texas

[dthollis1961]

What I did to my bus works for me, and it will work EVERYTIME. It
will not fail a day before a weeklong trip as it did to me. It will
not fail on the road like it did to Bill. I prefer dependability in
something that I'm driving and living in thousands of miles from
home.

Anyway...a forum member had a problem and I think I pointed him in
the right direction. No one else did.

David Hollis 84FC35(junker) Springfield,IL



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
wrote:
>
> Good morning everyone:
>
> Charolette and I are just back in from a nice 9 day camping spree
on the
> Blue River trout stream, one of several in Oklahoma, but was almost
totally
> out of touch as it is a cell phone and Internet dead area.
>
> I get a little confused some times with some of the threads on the
Forum. I
> some times wonder why someone would take a good high line Motor
Coach and
> turn it into junk. I mean it is ok with the SOB's perhaps, they are
not
> going to live longer than 10 years, as a rule of thumb anyway. But
to just
> change a well designed and engineered system because a little work
in
> finding the parts or simply removing a part, clean and lube it and
re
> install for another 20 year working period, I just don't get it.
>
> Yes, I do understand a part being obsolete, thus a change needing
to be
> made by finding another part type that will work with the orig.
system,
> thus keeping the Coach engineered integrity in tact! So many safety
systems
> are by passed or removed that were designed into a system to save a
Family
> from being blown up because of live steam in a hot water system or
an LP
> system safety by passed as a permanent fix because a sensor goes
bad on a
> board some where.
>
> The 3 way valve at the bottom of the water heater has a purpose,
there was
> not a by-pass winterizing system added by the Factory because the
Bird does
> not need it, that is what the built in designed air blow out system
is for.
> If one follows the manual, which someone took the time at the
Factory to
> put together for we owners, most of the systems in these beautiful
Coaches
> make sense and are understandable.
>
> Then I also wonder if changes that are made are documented for the
next guy
> who has the Coach because he is going to be like so many on this
Forum has
> been, asking questions like "how does this or that system
work?" "where do
> I get the parts or find the parts to up grand or bring it back to
> original?" Sound familiar?
>
> Yes I am venting in a way, but it is a venting from simply trying
to
> understand how a professed top of the line Motor Coach, have the
very
> systems that made it "Top of the Line" in the first place, simply
torn out,
> by passed, do for, second best type of work done on them, can be
documented
> and or professed as to being "the way to go" unless you have sat
down with
> design engineers and designed the system or at the very least,
taken the
> time to go through the documented diagrams, sat down to fully
understand
> the system in question to the point that you can write a "sequence
of
> operation" for that system.
>
> Come on guys if it is worth doing at all, then it is worth doing
right the
> first time.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> Duncan, Oklahoma
>

[Ralph L. Fullenwider]

Hi David:

I mentioned no names at all. I did use the thread subject as an example
only. This thread was not nor is pointed at anyone individual. The water
problem or the 3 way valve subject has come up 2 times last year, 2 times
the year before and 3 times the year before that one, and so on.

My point was and is, re build or up grade rather than completely re design
a system or by pass one, it does not matter what the system is, be it
water, LP gas, hydraulic, pneumatic and so on.

There again, if the proper prevent maint is done, these systems are
designed to work each and every time as well.

Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma

At 03:58 PM 3/19/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>What I did to my bus works for me, and it will work EVERYTIME. It
>will not fail a day before a weeklong trip as it did to me. It will
>not fail on the road like it did to Bill. I prefer dependability in
>something that I'm driving and living in thousands of miles from
>home.
>
>Anyway...a forum member had a problem and I think I pointed him in
>the right direction. No one else did.
>
>David Hollis 84FC35(junker) Springfield,IL
>
>
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
> wrote:
> >
> > Good morning everyone:
> >
> > Charolette and I are just back in from a nice 9 day camping spree
>on the
> > Blue River trout stream, one of several in Oklahoma, but was almost
>totally
> > out of touch as it is a cell phone and Internet dead area.
> >
> > I get a little confused some times with some of the threads on the
>Forum. I
> > some times wonder why someone would take a good high line Motor
>Coach and
> > turn it into junk. I mean it is ok with the SOB's perhaps, they are
>not
> > going to live longer than 10 years, as a rule of thumb anyway. But
>to just
> > change a well designed and engineered system because a little work
>in
> > finding the parts or simply removing a part, clean and lube it and
>re
> > install for another 20 year working period, I just don't get it.
> >
> > Yes, I do understand a part being obsolete, thus a change needing
>to be
> > made by finding another part type that will work with the orig.
>system,
> > thus keeping the Coach engineered integrity in tact! So many safety
>systems
> > are by passed or removed that were designed into a system to save a
>Family
> > from being blown up because of live steam in a hot water system or
>an LP
> > system safety by passed as a permanent fix because a sensor goes
>bad on a
> > board some where.
> >
> > The 3 way valve at the bottom of the water heater has a purpose,
>there was
> > not a by-pass winterizing system added by the Factory because the
>Bird does
> > not need it, that is what the built in designed air blow out system
>is for.
> > If one follows the manual, which someone took the time at the
>Factory to
> > put together for we owners, most of the systems in these beautiful
>Coaches
> > make sense and are understandable.
> >
> > Then I also wonder if changes that are made are documented for the
>next guy
> > who has the Coach because he is going to be like so many on this
>Forum has
> > been, asking questions like "how does this or that system
>work?" "where do
> > I get the parts or find the parts to up grand or bring it back to
> > original?" Sound familiar?
> >
> > Yes I am venting in a way, but it is a venting from simply trying
>to
> > understand how a professed top of the line Motor Coach, have the
>very
> > systems that made it "Top of the Line" in the first place, simply
>torn out,
> > by passed, do for, second best type of work done on them, can be
>documented
> > and or professed as to being "the way to go" unless you have sat
>down with
> > design engineers and designed the system or at the very least,
>taken the
> > time to go through the documented diagrams, sat down to fully
>understand
> > the system in question to the point that you can write a "sequence
>of
> > operation" for that system.
> >
> > Come on guys if it is worth doing at all, then it is worth doing
>right the
> > first time.
> >
> > Safe travels,
> >
> > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> > 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> > Duncan, Oklahoma
> >
>
>

[Gregory OConnor]

Ralph, where do you find 8 trac tapes for your deck? Quite a bit of
the old engineering is junk when compared to new tech. I never met an
engineere who didnt want to make change for the chance that the change
was better. Many of the parts are obsolete not because they are 'just
not made any more' but because they have been replaced with better
and are no longer marketable.
Origional is ok for fried chicken.

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

[Ralph L. Fullenwider]

Aw Greg, did you not see the word "up grade" in my post?

But then your right, todays engineering has made great strides in many
areas including items such as up graded compounds on rubber or even
synthetic rubber o-rings and re build kits for valves, cylinders and so
forth. It is not more cost effective to re build a valve with a 34.00 kit
rather than replace a valve at a cost of 2 to 3 hundred dollars. Then to
have to re plumb a system to accept the new valve? Of course it does.

Up grade from an 8 track to a cd system, sure! But not to the point of
gutting a system or by passing safeties just for the sake of doing it.

Making a change for the sake of betterment is great if it can be done and
maintain integrity but to make a change because a system, any system, is
not understood is ludicrous, and usually more costly in the long run.

Much of the earlier post comes from working on my '84 and going through non
working systems to bring them back on line and the changes made to by pass
certain systems. One example of this is on the gen set, the fuel pump had
quit working so the PO removed the fuel lines, tossed them out and brazed a
fitting to by pass the pump instead of replacing it, re building it or "up
grading" to an electric fuel pump. Or how about using "new engineered"
relays in the electronics, that shut down the gen set when running only
because of "contact bounce."

Besides, Greg, I sort of liked the record players that swung out from under
the dash that played 45's when the 8 track came along.

Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma

At 03:23 AM 3/20/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>Ralph, where do you find 8 trac tapes for your deck? Quite a bit of
>the old engineering is junk when compared to new tech. I never met an
>engineere who didnt want to make change for the chance that the change
>was better. Many of the parts are obsolete not because they are 'just
>not made any more' but because they have been replaced with better
>and are no longer marketable.
> Origional is ok for fried chicken.
>
>GregoryO'Connor
>94ptRomolandCa
>
>
>

[bubblerboy64]

Good points made on both sides of this one. Isn't it a little like
restoring and old car? Some want it original, some what the "looks"
of the old car with all new stuff under the surface. I think Ralph's
position (at least as I see it is) know were you are starting from
and were you are going to before you fire up the ole plasma cutter
and start in on her. If you don't understand how a carb works you
likely aren't going to get that new fuel injected super charged motor
to work right either. Gregs position is also valid. A good engineer
or mechanic should hopefully be able to go either way. I just wish I
had more knowledge and for me what Ralph is saying makes sense. Don't
just cut off stuff and hope. Go a little slower and learn from those
who have been there before ya. Makes life a lot easier if you "think"
about it first rather then later might be a way to say it? That's
what this group is about. Right?

John Heckman
central Pa
1973 FC





>
> Aw Greg, did you not see the word "up grade" in my post?
>
> But then your right, todays engineering has made great strides in
many
> areas including items such as up graded compounds on rubber or even
> synthetic rubber o-rings and re build kits for valves, cylinders
and so
> forth. It is not more cost effective to re build a valve with a
34.00 kit
> rather than replace a valve at a cost of 2 to 3 hundred dollars.
Then to
> have to re plumb a system to accept the new valve? Of course it
does.
>
> Up grade from an 8 track to a cd system, sure! But not to the point
of
> gutting a system or by passing safeties just for the sake of doing
it.
>
> Making a change for the sake of betterment is great if it can be
done and
> maintain integrity but to make a change because a system, any
system, is
> not understood is ludicrous, and usually more costly in the long
run.
>
> Much of the earlier post comes from working on my '84 and going
through non
> working systems to bring them back on line and the changes made to
by pass
> certain systems. One example of this is on the gen set, the fuel
pump had
> quit working so the PO removed the fuel lines, tossed them out and
brazed a
> fitting to by pass the pump instead of replacing it, re building it
or "up
> grading" to an electric fuel pump. Or how about using "new
engineered"
> relays in the electronics, that shut down the gen set when running
only
> because of "contact bounce."
>
> Besides, Greg, I sort of liked the record players that swung out
from under
> the dash that played 45's when the 8 track came along.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> Duncan, Oklahoma
>
> At 03:23 AM 3/20/2008 +0000, you wrote:
> >Ralph, where do you find 8 trac tapes for your deck? Quite a bit
of
> >the old engineering is junk when compared to new tech. I never met
an
> >engineere who didnt want to make change for the chance that the
change
> >was better. Many of the parts are obsolete not because they
are 'just
> >not made any more' but because they have been replaced with better
> >and are no longer marketable.
> > Origional is ok for fried chicken.
> >
> >GregoryO'Connor
> >94ptRomolandCa
> >
> >
> >
>

[John Stiles]

Good note Ralph and I completely agree with you. I have
spent "bookoos" of money in upgrades and improvements on mine but
systems wise and basic coach wise it is still all WL. I view myself
as the temporary care taker of this old coach and whomever the next
owner is, they will find that they can troubleshoot anything and
every thing because the basic original WL design is still there. No
offense to anyone but on occasion I am sickened by some of what I
think of as butchery. A made up example being someone posting to the
group saying "hey I just bought this older WL FC and I want to rip
out the bedroom and make it into a travelling hair salon". Thats an
exaguration but there have been a few that come closet. There was
one fellow several years ago who bought a perfectly nice FC and then
proceeded to rip out ALL of the interior including cabinetry, walls,
ceiling, shower stall etc. When he was finished there was nothing
left but a painted shell. He could have started off with a school
bus and had the same thing when he was finished. I would almost bet
that that old FC is sitting somewhere as an empty shell painted as a
WL. Oh well, thanks Ralph, you got me started..... ;^ )

Ranting off....


John Stiles
1980 33FC
"My Navion"




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
wrote:
>
> Good morning everyone:
>
> Charolette and I are just back in from a nice 9 day camping spree
on the
> Blue River trout stream, one of several in Oklahoma, but was almost
totally
> out of touch as it is a cell phone and Internet dead area.
>
> I get a little confused some times with some of the threads on the
Forum. I
> some times wonder why someone would take a good high line Motor
Coach and
> turn it into junk. I mean it is ok with the SOB's perhaps, they are
not
> going to live longer than 10 years, as a rule of thumb anyway. But
to just
> change a well designed and engineered system because a little work
in
> finding the parts or simply removing a part, clean and lube it and
re
> install for another 20 year working period, I just don't get it.
>
> Yes, I do understand a part being obsolete, thus a change needing
to be
> made by finding another part type that will work with the orig.
system,
> thus keeping the Coach engineered integrity in tact! So many safety
systems
> are by passed or removed that were designed into a system to save a
Family
> from being blown up because of live steam in a hot water system or
an LP
> system safety by passed as a permanent fix because a sensor goes
bad on a
> board some where.
>
> The 3 way valve at the bottom of the water heater has a purpose,
there was
> not a by-pass winterizing system added by the Factory because the
Bird does
> not need it, that is what the built in designed air blow out system
is for.
> If one follows the manual, which someone took the time at the
Factory to
> put together for we owners, most of the systems in these beautiful
Coaches
> make sense and are understandable.
>
> Then I also wonder if changes that are made are documented for the
next guy
> who has the Coach because he is going to be like so many on this
Forum has
> been, asking questions like "how does this or that system
work?" "where do
> I get the parts or find the parts to up grand or bring it back to
> original?" Sound familiar?
>
> Yes I am venting in a way, but it is a venting from simply trying
to
> understand how a professed top of the line Motor Coach, have the
very
> systems that made it "Top of the Line" in the first place, simply
torn out,
> by passed, do for, second best type of work done on them, can be
documented
> and or professed as to being "the way to go" unless you have sat
down with
> design engineers and designed the system or at the very least,
taken the
> time to go through the documented diagrams, sat down to fully
understand
> the system in question to the point that you can write a "sequence
of
> operation" for that system.
>
> Come on guys if it is worth doing at all, then it is worth doing
right the
> first time.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> Duncan, Oklahoma
>

[mbulriss]

Hey Ralph,

I'm sure I still have some of those 8-tracks somewhere if you want
them.... if I could only find where I stored them!

Mike Bulriss - Never Ever Throw Anything Away! You'll need it someday.
1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
San Antonio, TX

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
>
> Ralph, where do you find 8 trac tapes for your deck? Quite a bit of
> the old engineering is junk when compared to new tech. I never met an
> engineere who didnt want to make change for the chance that the change
> was better. Many of the parts are obsolete not because they are 'just
> not made any more' but because they have been replaced with better
> and are no longer marketable.
> Origional is ok for fried chicken.
>
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>