We Were Warned in 1998

[Leroy A. Eckert]

I found this report quite a while back written by folks much more
intelligent than I. With all the hallabaloos about fuel prices I find
this quite interesting. Ethanol and Bio fuel will not fix this problem
anytime soon. It was written and published in 1998 so I presume it was
lost in the hanging chads of the Florida election and transfer of
power. It is not necessary to read the whole report as I did, just
read page 31. It says it all about what is happening today.
I hope Yahoo does not split this url because I cannot edit this post.

http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20o...soline.pdf

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA

[Jack & Donna Smith]

I think a lot of this was brought out a lot earlier. In the 60s &
70s, the Hippie era, "The Whole Earth Catalouge" detailed how to burn
"deep fry oil" in a diesel, and also a lot of other stuff on
alternative fuels and other energy sources. Several articles detailed
on how to convert a car alternator, and generator, (remember('Flashing
the Field'?) to windmill power.
But, why bother? After all Gas was 35¢ a Gal, and diesel a bit less!
Jack Smith
1973FC31
SoCal.



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy A. Eckert"
wrote:
>
> I found this report quite a while back written by folks much more
> intelligent than I. With all the hallabaloos about fuel prices I find
> this quite interesting. Ethanol and Bio fuel will not fix this problem
> anytime soon. It was written and published in 1998 so I presume it was
> lost in the hanging chads of the Florida election and transfer of
> power. It is not necessary to read the whole report as I did, just
> read page 31. It says it all about what is happening today.
> I hope Yahoo does not split this url because I cannot edit this post.
>
> http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20o...soline.pdf
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
> Dahlonega, GA
>

[Leroy Eckert]

I agree. I was a Hippie once upon a time. Sometimes I think that was more fun. lol

The post was not intended to be about alternative energy sources, it was intended to be about oil price spikes and the damage that can occur to the economy and the pain it can cause to our BB life style. The report is dead on. I don't know about you but I have a hard time justifying $1500 to fill'er up and joy ride. I was once buff and good looking, today I am fat and old. Times change. As well, I would not care to have those wind mill electric generators in Banning Pass behind my house. No one wants those in their back yard. Besides, if there were any trees in that part of CA they would not be there either. That is part of the problem. I lived there for 25 years, I even remember Jojoba(sp?) oil. lol

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA
Royale Conversion

Jack & Donna Smith wrote:

I think a lot of this was brought out a lot earlier. In the 60s &
70s, the Hippie era, "The Whole Earth Catalouge" detailed how to burn
"deep fry oil" in a diesel, and also a lot of other stuff on
alternative fuels and other energy sources. Several articles detailed
on how to convert a car alternator, and generator, (remember('Flashing
the Field'?) to windmill power.
But, why bother? After all Gas was 35¢ a Gal, and diesel a bit less!
Jack Smith
1973FC31
SoCal.

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Leroy A. Eckert"
...> wrote:
>
> I found this report quite a while back written by folks much more
> intelligent than I. With all the hallabaloos about fuel prices I find
> this quite interesting. Ethanol and Bio fuel will not fix this problem
> anytime soon. It was written and published in 1998 so I presume it was
> lost in the hanging chads of the Florida election and transfer of
> power. It is not necessary to read the whole report as I did, just
> read page 31. It says it all about what is happening today.
> I hope Yahoo does not split this url because I cannot edit this post.
>
> http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf
>
> Leroy Eckert
>
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
> Dahlonega, GA
>

[erniecarpet@...]

Jack- did you get my email?

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Livingston, Montana

---

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

[Bill Garamella]

Leroy,

Interesting find.

Executive summary premise -

"The federal government provides the oil industry with numerous tax breaks
designed to
ensure that domestic companies can compete with international producers and that
gasoline remains cheap for American consumers."

When we add in the stated externalities

• TAX SUBSIDIES
• PROGRAM SUBSIDIES
• PROTECTION SUBSIDIES
• OTHER EXTERNAL COSTS

real cost "results in a per gallon price of $5.60 to $15.14." This was in
1998. What do
these numbers look like today today? What has changed? Is it only the
per-barrel cost?
Are the externalities relatively the same?

What affect does the refining capacity have on this? Has that factor kept up
with our
demand? The only factor I hear about improving in this realm are oil company
profits.
How do these compare with 1998 on a percentage basis? If this is a profit grab,
they will
eventually choke themselves off. Or is it simply supply and demand? Do they
know how
far they can push us? Are they smugly smirking as those digital pumps encrypt
sales
figures and move the real time information by satellite to the counting houses
in Dubai?
(Paranoid thought?)

Are we simply less of a factor on the global scale than we once were? When you
look
most world maps produced in this country, the United States is usually in the
center and
Asia is divided to either side. When you look a map that has Asia whole, the US
does not
look so big. To me, this is a very powerful and telling image.

The executive summary concludes with -

"Drivers faced with the cost of their gasoline usage up front may have a more
difficult
time ignoring the harmful effects that their addiction to automobiles and the
internal
combustion engine have on national security, the environment, their health, and
their
quality of life."

In the long run is this really good for us? Will we figure out an affordable
way to run our
Birds? I hope I live long enough hydrogen? United technologies and others are
working on it. http://www.utc.com/curious/

In the mean time --- (to the tune of Dire Straits "Money for Nothin") I WANT MY
WNADERLODGE, I WANT MY WANDERLODGE, I WANT MY WANDERLODGE

BTW I too was a Hippie once upon a time, I can't say it was less fun. lol

Bill






--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Leroy Eckert wrote:
>
> I agree. I was a Hippie once upon a time. Sometimes I think that was more fun.
lol
>
> The post was not intended to be about alternative energy sources, it was
intended to
be about oil price spikes and the damage that can occur to the economy and the
pain it
can cause to our BB life style. The report is dead on. I don't know about you
but I have a
hard time justifying $1500 to fill'er up and joy ride. I was once buff and good
looking,
today I am fat and old. Times change. As well, I would not care to have those
wind mill
electric generators in Banning Pass behind my house. No one wants those in their
back
yard. Besides, if there were any trees in that part of CA they would not be
there either.
That is part of the problem. I lived there for 25 years, I even remember
Jojoba(sp?) oil.
lol
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
> Dahlonega, GA
> Royale Conversion
>
> Jack & Donna Smith wrote: I think a
lot of this was
brought out a lot earlier. In the 60s &
> 70s, the Hippie era, "The Whole Earth Catalouge" detailed how to burn
> "deep fry oil" in a diesel, and also a lot of other stuff on
> alternative fuels and other energy sources. Several articles detailed
> on how to convert a car alternator, and generator, (remember('Flashing
> the Field'?) to windmill power.
> But, why bother? After all Gas was 35¢ a Gal, and diesel a bit less!
> Jack Smith
> 1973FC31
> SoCal.
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy A. Eckert"
> wrote:
> >
> > I found this report quite a while back written by folks much more
> > intelligent than I. With all the hallabaloos about fuel prices I find
> > this quite interesting. Ethanol and Bio fuel will not fix this problem
> > anytime soon. It was written and published in 1998 so I presume it was
> > lost in the hanging chads of the Florida election and transfer of
> > power. It is not necessary to read the whole report as I did, just
> > read page 31. It says it all about what is happening today.
> > I hope Yahoo does not split this url because I cannot edit this post.
> >
> > http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20o...soline.pdf
> >
> > Leroy Eckert
> > 1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
> > Dahlonega, GA
> >
>

[Ryan Wright]

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
>
> As well, I would not care to have those wind mill
> electric generators in Banning Pass behind my house.
> No one wants those in their back yard.

I do. I spent a year under contract to buy 100 acres of land with
several dozen of these just a few miles away. Too bad the deal fell
through, I would have loved to have lived there. Those giant, slow
turning blades are a thing of beauty to me, as well as what they
represent - clean power. They're silent, so no problems with noise. I
understand some folks think they're an eyesore, I'm just not one of
them.

Farmers with cheap, remote and windy land that nobody wants to live on
are now finding their property spiking in value. Wind farm operators
are paying several thousand dollars per year, per tower, and the
footprint is so small that the farmer can continue to grow crops. It's
a win-win to me. A friend of mine is about to inherit property with
residual wind farm income over a quarter million dollars a year. Ten
years ago, his father's farm was only worth what they could grow on
it.

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

[Dorn Hetzel]

It would not bother me to have them in my yard, even in my front yard.

Power has to come from somewhere, and it's hard to find sources with less overall
impact than wind and solar. They complement each other nicely since it's often windy

when not sunny, and so on. Storage for when it's still and dark is still an issue, but
other fuels can pick up that slack for now. Making hydrogen with excess wind/solar
power to turn back into power for the grid or fuel for vehicles later is one option that

may work out.

If fuel cells can get a little down from the current $8/watt or so, I see silent RV generators
for dry camping in the not so distant future Even now, someone with one of those
$600K+ units could afford $40K for 5kw worth of completely silent generator capacity

that only emits water. With storage tanks and the right hydrolysis gear, the hydrogen
fuel could be manufactured whenever plugged into a nice 50amp park service

Dorn Hetzel
77FC35
Hogansville, GA

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Ryan Wright <"ryanpwright@gmail.com"> wrote:

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Leroy Eckert <"jwasnewski%40yahoo.com"> wrote:

>

> As well, I would not care to have those wind mill

> electric generators in Banning Pass behind my house.

> No one wants those in their back yard.

I do. I spent a year under contract to buy 100 acres of land with

several dozen of these just a few miles away. Too bad the deal fell

through, I would have loved to have lived there. Those giant, slow

turning blades are a thing of beauty to me, as well as what they

represent - clean power. They're silent, so no problems with noise. I

understand some folks think they're an eyesore, I'm just not one of

them.



Farmers with cheap, remote and windy land that nobody wants to live on

are now finding their property spiking in value. Wind farm operators

are paying several thousand dollars per year, per tower, and the

footprint is so small that the farmer can continue to grow crops. It's

a win-win to me. A friend of mine is about to inherit property with

residual wind farm income over a quarter million dollars a year. Ten

years ago, his father's farm was only worth what they could grow on

it.



-Ryan

'86 PT-40 8V92

[brad barton]

I know we have Al who's into bio diesel. Has anyone tried the "diesel secret" formula of heavily filtered non-hydrogenated oil and catalyst (basically lye)? If they're not a bunch of chalatans, that seems like a much simpler approach.

BradBarton00LXiDFW bbartonwx@...

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With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. Connect on the go.

[Al]

Brad,
RUN FAR AWAY FROM THAT STUFF. I have been on biodiesel forums for
over 3 years now and their are many accounts of this product clogging
injectors. If you are looking for cheap fuel, there is only one way
to that that is safe and well tested! Long story short, this snake
oil is supposed to thin out the oil. Only way to do that is by a
chemical process. I run 6 hours acid reaction and then 6 hours with
a base reaction. You are never going to stir in some ingredients and
filter and have anything close.

Al Johnson
'96 BMC B100
Mandeville, Louisiana

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, brad barton <bbartonwx@...>
wrote:
>
> I know we have Al who's into bio diesel. Has anyone tried
the "diesel secret" formula of heavily filtered non-hydrogenated oil
and catalyst (basically lye)? If they're not a bunch of chalatans,
that seems like a much simpler approach. Brad Barton 00LXiDFW
bbartonwx@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
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ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_mobile_052008
>

[Dorn Hetzel]

That sounds like part of the method for making biodiesel except missing the methanol.

I would have my doubts, since the chemistry of breaking up those long chains requires
methanol or another similar input.


-Dorn

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 6:02 PM, brad barton <"bbartonwx@hotmail.com"> wrote:

I know we have Al who's into bio diesel. Has anyone tried the "diesel secret" formula of heavily filtered non-hydrogenated oil and catalyst (basically lye)? If they're not a bunch of chalatans, that seems like a much simpler approach.


BradBarton00LXiDFW "bbartonwx@hotmail.com"

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