Sad Safety Reminder

[Ryan Wright]

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Pete Masterson wrote:
>
> The only true safety from being crushed is for something that can not
> collapse should be placed between the frame and the ground.

I like this statement. It makes good sense, and I'll change my
procedures to follow it.

-Ryan

[Michael]

Very Sad Reminder... I've had my bus fall on me twice in the last 20
years. To date I've only received a headache and a bruised ego.
During the conversion process on my '63 Bluebird I had to get
underneath it often to mount generator, holding tanks, wiring, etc..
but this also applies to our Wanderlodges too. Because I followed
the redudant rule, I'm still here to tell you about it.

The first was using block to raise the bus.. I had stacked the block
with plywood separaters. My old bus was light at only 22,000 lbs but
it crushes blocks very easily. I then used only lumber but then
found that 4x4's split very easily too. Now I support with large
timber and jacks only.

However, here's a good start. I took 4-2x6's and laid them flat on a
1'x2' piece of plywood with about 1/2" space between. I then added a
second piece of plywook and criss-crossed the 2x6's with the first
row. I repeated this pattern until I had aobut 7" high 1'x2' pads
for the front wheels, and 7" high 2'x4' pads for the rears. I used
glue and screws to help hold it all together.

I will drive up on these pads so that my total clearance is the bus
clearance plus 7". On that bus it was enough so that if something
should fail the bus height would be great enough for me to crawl out
and clean my shorts.

Now with my Wanderlodge anytime I have to raise the bus I'll treat it
as if I was going to work on the hydraulics. Never rely on the
hydraulics for human safety, they were chosen to level a bus. There
are no safety pins and lines do burst.

My pads cost about $100 in material and that is very cheap
insurance. If anyone would like pics let me know... These things can
happen so fast.. it just takes one small oversite...

Sincerely,

Michael Putz
1978 FC35SB "Putz'n Around"
Mesa, Az


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mbulriss" <mbulriss@...>
wrote:
>
> Our understanding is that Jim's passing was due to his bus falling
on him.
>
> This is again another sad reminder to be ultra safe when working
under
> these things.
>
> I may be a big chicken, but personally, depending on what I am doing
> under there, I use 4'x12"x6" wood ramps, wheel chocks, the bus
jacks,
> two 20-ton hydraulic jacks and two 20-ton jack stands before I crawl
> under the Bird. I never crawl under without at least two redundant
> sets of jacks in place. Any questions on why?
>
> Sad, very sad.
>
> Mike Bulriss
> 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
> San Antonio, TX
>

[bumpersbird]

Pete,

I've seen some shops use the technique of using blocks under the
jacks to get the wheels off the ground and to get the coach in the
air. I may be wrong but I think their is an issue of the air bags
being strained beyond thier extension limits.

Don't get me wrong I've had the wheels off the ground via the jacks
several times, but I don't like to do it and I think it could easily
damage the coach.

I would suggest a pit or a lift for the safest way for working under
anything.

Sometimes we take safty for granted, we think we know what what were
doing, most of us have spent a lot of time working on our coaches and
we know them intimatly. She can and will bite, if you don't mind her.
You just can't be too careful.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT-42
Fayetteville TN






--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> That is the precise recipe for a disaster. You need to add:
> 5. Wheels chocked front and back (with adequate chocks!) Two axles
> preferred.
> 6. Jack stands, of suitable weight rating, set under the frame
> members to hold the bus should it come down.
>
> I note that on later models, lowering the jacks causes the
suspension
> to dump automatically. The leveling jacks (on my coach) state
right
> on the control panel, "Not to be used for working under the coach."
>
> The only true safety from being crushed is for something that can
not
> collapse should be placed between the frame and the ground. The
air
> bags can collapse without warning if (for example) you open an air-
> line on purpose or by accident. The leveling jacks may have a
failure
> (or you may damage a hydraulic line) while you're working under
the
> coach.
>
> I note during my recent visit to CCW that the technicians were
clever
> in their use of the leveling jacks to raise the coach for working
> under it (at one point, putting blocks under the jacks to raise
the
> coach higher then normal). However, they also used very heavy duty
> jack stands (looked like they could hold 50 tons) to keep the
coach
> from unexpectedly coming down.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Ryan Wright wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, mbulriss <mbulriss@...> wrote:
> >> Our understanding is that Jim's passing was due to his bus
falling
> >> on him.
> >
> > Does anyone know how it happened? What was he doing, what went
wrong?
> >
> > I crawl under my bus all the time under these circumstances:
> >
> > 1. Parked on a flat, level surface.
> > 2. Parking brake set.
> > 3. Air bags inflated.
> > 4. Leveling jacks down as a safety against airbag failure.
> >
> > I've never had cause to jack the bus up beyond normal airbag
operating
> > height. I'm small enough I can work around it without lifting it.
I
> > can't see the airbags and the jacks failing at the same time. I'd
> > imagine most of the danger here is when you've actually lifted
one or
> > more tires off the ground, yes?
> >
>

[Jon]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> This may not be true for all Wanderlodges, (I think it is), but
> on my LXi the shocks will stop the drooping axles before the
> air bags, thereby eliminating load on the air bags. I called Koni
> and Justin assured me that each shock can handle 8500 lb of
> dead load (tension) in this static configuration; consequently,
> there's no risk of damaging a shock.
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NC
>
> bumpersbird wrote:
> >
> > Pete,
> >
> > I've seen some shops use the technique of using blocks under the
> > jacks to get the wheels off the ground and to get the coach in the
> > air. I may be wrong but I think their is an issue of the air bags
> > being strained beyond thier extension limits.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong I've had the wheels off the ground via the
jacks
> > several times, but I don't like to do it and I think it could
easily
> > damage the coach.
> >
> > I would suggest a pit or a lift for the safest way for working
under
> > anything.
> >
> > Sometimes we take safty for granted, we think we know what what
were
> > doing, most of us have spent a lot of time working on our coaches
and
> > we know them intimatly. She can and will bite, if you don't mind
her.
> > You just can't be too careful.
> >
> > Kurt Horvath
> > 95 PT-42
> > Fayetteville TN
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > , Pete Masterson
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ryan,
> > >
> > > That is the precise recipe for a disaster. You need to add:
> > > 5. Wheels chocked front and back (with adequate chocks!) Two
axles
> > > preferred.
> > > 6. Jack stands, of suitable weight rating, set under the frame
> > > members to hold the bus should it come down.
> > >
> > > I note that on later models, lowering the jacks causes the
> > suspension
> > > to dump automatically. The leveling jacks (on my coach) state
> > right
> > > on the control panel, "Not to be used for working under the
coach."
> > >
> > > The only true safety from being crushed is for something that
can
> > not
> > > collapse should be placed between the frame and the ground. The
> > air
> > > bags can collapse without warning if (for example) you open an
air-
> > > line on purpose or by accident. The leveling jacks may have a
> > failure
> > > (or you may damage a hydraulic line) while you're working under
> > the
> > > coach.
> > >
> > > I note during my recent visit to CCW that the technicians were
> > clever
> > > in their use of the leveling jacks to raise the coach for
working
> > > under it (at one point, putting blocks under the jacks to raise
> > the
> > > coach higher then normal). However, they also used very heavy
duty
> > > jack stands (looked like they could hold 50 tons) to keep the
> > coach
> > > from unexpectedly coming down.
> > >
> > > Pete Masterson
> > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > > El Sobrante CA
> > > aeonix1@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 9, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Ryan Wright wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, mbulriss <mbulriss@> wrote:
> > > >> Our understanding is that Jim's passing was due to his bus
> > falling
> > > >> on him.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know how it happened? What was he doing, what went
> > wrong?
> > > >
> > > > I crawl under my bus all the time under these circumstances:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Parked on a flat, level surface.
> > > > 2. Parking brake set.
> > > > 3. Air bags inflated.
> > > > 4. Leveling jacks down as a safety against airbag failure.
> > > >
> > > > I've never had cause to jack the bus up beyond normal airbag
> > operating
> > > > height. I'm small enough I can work around it without lifting
it.
> > I
> > > > can't see the airbags and the jacks failing at the same time.
I'd
> > > > imagine most of the danger here is when you've actually lifted
> > one or
> > > > more tires off the ground, yes?



This might sound dumb but what about us guys out here that don't have
air bags or jacks to level out the coach, can our coach bit us also?
I know when I do go under my coach I make sure the brakes are on and
something in front or back of the tires. But the only way my coach
could fall down and pin me under would haft to be a blown out tire.
Our old buses you haft to bleed the excess moisture out of the air
tanks every so often and so we do haft to go underneath.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1490 - Release Date:
6/8/2008 5:32 PM
> >
>

[Pete Masterson]

I believe the shocks where stopping the droop of the axles, so the stress wasn't on the air bags -- From what I could see, they were not over-extended. This may not be true on older coaches -- but it appeared to be the case on my '95. Indeed, on some modestly sloping camp sites, the leveling jacks will bring the wheels completely off the ground, so BB must have engineered the suspension to allow for that.

CCW in Riverside does not have pits -- I'm told they're looking for a new location (for the complete facility) as they've outgrown the area they have, so they're not investing anything extra in the facilities they have beyond basic necesities.

When the wanted to do a full examination of the underside (and wash the bottom of the engine, etc.) they used 6 "wheel jacks" -- huge hydraulic jacks that cradle each tire and raise up the coach (controlled by a computer that keeps them all moving together). It was an amazing thing to see. (I saw several busses raised up with the things while I was there.)

However, for some aspects of the service, the work was done next to the "Blue Bird" section of the CCW facility. For example, the air dryer was removed (to be rebuilt) with the coach slightly raised to let the technicians roll under the coach on creepers. I think the technicians would be very happy to have a service pit -- and perhaps one will be made available in the future when CCW finds, builds, and moves to a new facility.

When I was at Henderson's Line-Up in Grants Pass Oregon -- seeing how they worked on the coach from their pit made it very clear what an advantage it was. To tell the truth, I wish I had room for a pit for the maintenance items I handle (but that's far from likely to ever happen).

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:28 PM, David Brady wrote:

This may not be true for all Wanderlodges, (I think it is), but
on my LXi the shocks will stop the drooping axles before the
air bags, thereby eliminating load on the air bags. I called Koni
and Justin assured me that each shock can handle 8500 lb of
dead load (tension) in this static configuration; consequently,
there's no risk of damaging a shock.

David Brady
'02 LXi, NC

bumpersbird wrote:

Pete,

I've seen some shops use the technique of using blocks under the
jacks to get the wheels off the ground and to get the coach in the
air. I may be wrong but I think their is an issue of the air bags
being strained beyond thier extension limits.

Don't get me wrong I've had the wheels off the ground via the jacks
several times, but I don't like to do it and I think it could easily
damage the coach.

I would suggest a pit or a lift for the safest way for working under
anything.

Sometimes we take safty for granted, we think we know what what were
doing, most of us have spent a lot of time working on our coaches and
we know them intimatly. She can and will bite, if you don't mind her.
You just can't be too careful.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT-42
Fayetteville TN

<snip>

[bumpersbird]

Here is a picture of my coach on the lift you mentioned.
Photo #37 in my photo album Bumpersbird.

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/W...os/view/70
06?b=37

I have a place for a pit. I just don't have the funds:{

Kurt Horvath
95 PT-42


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> I believe the shocks where stopping the droop of the axles, so the
> stress wasn't on the air bags -- From what I could see, they were
not
> over-extended. This may not be true on older coaches -- but it
> appeared to be the case on my '95. Indeed, on some modestly
sloping
> camp sites, the leveling jacks will bring the wheels completely
off
> the ground, so BB must have engineered the suspension to allow for
that.
>
> CCW in Riverside does not have pits -- I'm told they're looking for
a
> new location (for the complete facility) as they've outgrown the
area
> they have, so they're not investing anything extra in the
facilities
> they have beyond basic necesities.
>
> When the wanted to do a full examination of the underside (and
wash
> the bottom of the engine, etc.) they used 6 "wheel jacks" -- huge
> hydraulic jacks that cradle each tire and raise up the coach
> (controlled by a computer that keeps them all moving together). It
> was an amazing thing to see. (I saw several busses raised up with
the
> things while I was there.)
>
> However, for some aspects of the service, the work was done next
to
> the "Blue Bird" section of the CCW facility. For example, the air
> dryer was removed (to be rebuilt) with the coach slightly raised
to
> let the technicians roll under the coach on creepers. I think the
> technicians would be very happy to have a service pit -- and
perhaps
> one will be made available in the future when CCW finds, builds,
and
> moves to a new facility.
>
> When I was at Henderson's Line-Up in Grants Pass Oregon -- seeing
how
> they worked on the coach from their pit made it very clear what an
> advantage it was. To tell the truth, I wish I had room for a pit
for
> the maintenance items I handle (but that's far from likely to ever
> happen).
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:28 PM, David Brady wrote:
>
> > This may not be true for all Wanderlodges, (I think it is), but
> > on my LXi the shocks will stop the drooping axles before the
> > air bags, thereby eliminating load on the air bags. I called Koni
> > and Justin assured me that each shock can handle 8500 lb of
> > dead load (tension) in this static configuration; consequently,
> > there's no risk of damaging a shock.
> >
> > David Brady
> > '02 LXi, NC
> >
> > bumpersbird wrote:
> >>
> >> Pete,
> >>
> >> I've seen some shops use the technique of using blocks under the
> >> jacks to get the wheels off the ground and to get the coach in
the
> >> air. I may be wrong but I think their is an issue of the air bags
> >> being strained beyond thier extension limits.
> >>
> >> Don't get me wrong I've had the wheels off the ground via the
jacks
> >> several times, but I don't like to do it and I think it could
easily
> >> damage the coach.
> >>
> >> I would suggest a pit or a lift for the safest way for working
under
> >> anything.
> >>
> >> Sometimes we take safty for granted, we think we know what what
were
> >> doing, most of us have spent a lot of time working on our
coaches and
> >> we know them intimatly. She can and will bite, if you don't mind
her.
> >> You just can't be too careful.
> >>
> >> Kurt Horvath
> >> 95 PT-42
> >> Fayetteville TN
> >>
> > <snip>
> >
>

[David Brady]

This may not be true for all Wanderlodges, (I think it is), but

on my LXi the shocks will stop the drooping axles before the

air bags, thereby eliminating load on the air bags. I called Koni

and Justin assured me that each shock can handle 8500 lb of

dead load (tension) in this static configuration; consequently,

there's no risk of damaging a shock.



David Brady

'02 LXi, NC



bumpersbird wrote:

Pete,



I've seen some shops use the technique of using blocks under the

jacks to get the wheels off the ground and to get the coach in the

air. I may be wrong but I think their is an issue of the air bags

being strained beyond thier extension limits.



Don't get me wrong I've had the wheels off the ground via the jacks

several times, but I don't like to do it and I think it could easily

damage the coach.



I would suggest a pit or a lift for the safest way for working under

anything.



Sometimes we take safty for granted, we think we know what what were

doing, most of us have spent a lot of time working on our coaches and

we know them intimatly. She can and will bite, if you don't mind her.

You just can't be too careful.



Kurt Horvath

95 PT-42

Fayetteville TN



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
Pete Masterson

> wrote:

>

> Ryan,

>

> That is the precise recipe for a disaster. You need to add:

> 5. Wheels chocked front and back (with adequate chocks!) Two axles


> preferred.

> 6. Jack stands, of suitable weight rating, set under the frame

> members to hold the bus should it come down.

>

> I note that on later models, lowering the jacks causes the

suspension

> to dump automatically. The leveling jacks (on my coach) state

right

> on the control panel, "Not to be used for working under the coach."

>

> The only true safety from being crushed is for something that can

not

> collapse should be placed between the frame and the ground. The

air

> bags can collapse without warning if (for example) you open an
air-

> line on purpose or by accident. The leveling jacks may have a

failure

> (or you may damage a hydraulic line) while you're working under

the

> coach.

>

> I note during my recent visit to CCW that the technicians were

clever

> in their use of the leveling jacks to raise the coach for working

> under it (at one point, putting blocks under the jacks to raise

the

> coach higher then normal). However, they also used very heavy duty


> jack stands (looked like they could hold 50 tons) to keep the

coach

> from unexpectedly coming down.

>

> Pete Masterson

> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

> El Sobrante CA

> aeonix1@...

>

>

>

> On Jun 9, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Ryan Wright wrote:

>

> > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, mbulriss <mbulriss@..<wbr>.>
wrote:

> >> Our understanding is that Jim's passing was due to his
bus

falling

> >> on him.

> >

> > Does anyone know how it happened? What was he doing, what
went

wrong?

> >

> > I crawl under my bus all the time under these circumstances:

> >

> > 1. Parked on a flat, level surface.

> > 2. Parking brake set.

> > 3. Air bags inflated.

> > 4. Leveling jacks down as a safety against airbag failure.

> >

> > I've never had cause to jack the bus up beyond normal airbag

operating

> > height. I'm small enough I can work around it without lifting
it.

I

> > can't see the airbags and the jacks failing at the same time.
I'd

> > imagine most of the danger here is when you've actually
lifted

one or

> > more tires off the ground, yes?

> >

>

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Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1490 - Release Date: 6/8/2008 5:32 PM

[David Brady]

Here's a set of pictures of the cribbing/stands that I use

for my bus:



http://tinyurl.com/5hkj8v



Materials:

1. OTC 20 Ton Jack Stands,

2. OTC 20 Ton Bottle Jack.

3. 10" x 20" x 2" LVL Microlam Boards: (stacked side by side and cross
wise providing

a 20" x 20" x 8" platform). LVL Microlam has a 750 psi compressive
strength. A 20" x 20"

column provides 150 tons of support.

4. 12" x 12" x 2" LVL Microlam Boards: (used to support drive and tag
axles and as redundant jack stand supports

5. two 20" x 20" x .25" steel plate

6. four 12" x 12" x .25" steel plate



David Brady

'02 LXi, Smokey

[David Brady]

Thanks Earnie! My garage is cleaner than my house!



David Brady

'02 LXi, NC



"erniecarpet@aol.com" wrote:

David- you could serve a 5 course meal on your garage floor!!
Very nice.

Ernie Ekberg

83PT40

Livingston, Montana

---

Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

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Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1490 - Release Date: 6/8/2008 5:32 PM

[PM7088@...]

PIts are wonderful to work in. They are also a huge liability as falling into
one can be lethal. Building codes in many areas do not allow them.

Pete


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Pete Masterson
> I believe the shocks where stopping the droop of the axles, so the
> stress wasn't on the air bags -- From what I could see, they were not
> over-extended. This may not be true on older coaches -- but it
> appeared to be the case on my '95. Indeed, on some modestly sloping
> camp sites, the leveling jacks will bring the wheels completely off
> the ground, so BB must have engineered the suspension to allow for that.
>
> CCW in Riverside does not have pits -- I'm told they're looking for a
> new location (for the complete facility) as they've outgrown the area
> they have, so they're not investing anything extra in the facilities
> they have beyond basic necesities.
>
> When the wanted to do a full examination of the underside (and wash
> the bottom of the engine, etc.) they used 6 "wheel jacks" -- huge
> hydraulic jacks that cradle each tire and raise up the coach
> (controlled by a computer that keeps them all moving together). It
> was an amazing thing to see. (I saw several busses raised up with the
> things while I was there.)
>
> However, for some aspects of the service, the work was done next to
> the "Blue Bird" section of the CCW facility. For example, the air
> dryer was removed (to be rebuilt) with the coach slightly raised to
> let the technicians roll under the coach on creepers. I think the
> technicians would be very happy to have a service pit -- and perhaps
> one will be made available in the future when CCW finds, builds, and
> moves to a new facility.
>
> When I was at Henderson's Line-Up in Grants Pass Oregon -- seeing how
> they worked on the coach from their pit made it very clear what an
> advantage it was. To tell the truth, I wish I had room for a pit for
> the maintenance items I handle (but that's far from likely to ever
> happen).
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:28 PM, David Brady wrote:
>
> > This may not be true for all Wanderlodges, (I think it is), but
> > on my LXi the shocks will stop the drooping axles before the
> > air bags, thereby eliminating load on the air bags. I called Koni
> > and Justin assured me that each shock can handle 8500 lb of
> > dead load (tension) in this static configuration; consequently,
> > there's no risk of damaging a shock.
> >
> > David Brady
> > '02 LXi, NC
> >
> > bumpersbird wrote:
> >>
> >> Pete,
> >>
> >> I've seen some shops use the technique of using blocks under the
> >> jacks to get the wheels off the ground and to get the coach in the
> >> air. I may be wrong but I think their is an issue of the air bags
> >> being strained beyond thier extension limits.
> >>
> >> Don't get me wrong I've had the wheels off the ground via the jacks
> >> several times, but I don't like to do it and I think it could easily
> >> damage the coach.
> >>
> >> I would suggest a pit or a lift for the safest way for working under
> >> anything.
> >>
> >> Sometimes we take safty for granted, we think we know what what were
> >> doing, most of us have spent a lot of time working on our coaches and
> >> we know them intimatly. She can and will bite, if you don't mind her.
> >> You just can't be too careful.
> >>
> >> Kurt Horvath
> >> 95 PT-42
> >> Fayetteville TN
> >>
> > <snip>
> >
>