Air to Turbo

[Wilhelmus Schreurs]

When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does not appear to get enough air from the outside.
Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2 inches = 40 sq in.
Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches, this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)
Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??
What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as
right now it is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it
should be getting the colder air from outside?
Any advice, pros and cons would be
appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
Terrace, B.C. Canada

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[Gregory OConnor]

Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air causes
restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air
turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that
collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and
reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was no
restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its
self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than
smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water
restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling
silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics??? But
turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has
density lost??

I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I
understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.?????

Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for
another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids.
it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence.

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs
wrote:
>
>
> When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air
cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe
this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does
not appear to get enough air from the outside.
> Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2
inches = 40 sq in.
> Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches,
this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter
should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)
> Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??
> What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it
is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it
should be getting the colder air from outside?
> Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> Terrace, B.C. Canada
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
> Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required.
Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
>

[Pete Masterson]

While I worked at NASA Ames Research Center, I learned that "fluid dynamics" often applies very directly to air flow. So, observations about hydrodynamics very often directly applies. 

Air for combustion is best obtained from the coolest source. On my DD Series 60 (and I think the 8v92s) there is an "air charge cooler" that is used to cool the air after it passes through the turbocharger and before it goes into the combustion chamber. Cooling the air makes it denser. Compressing air makes it hotter. 

I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal reports of improved 3208 performance by routing air intake to the front of the engine compartment, away from the behind the radiator. (Other FC owners with experience on this point would be far more help.) With a naturally aspirated front engine, a proper shape of the air inlet can result in "ram air" that gives a slight power boost.  Ram air is much less of an issue with a turbo charger, but would have a minor positive impact. 

On the PT models, getting air from outside the engine compartment is ideal. I believe my coach has its combustion air inlet on the curb side above the large grate side access door. There is no scoop or other effort to increase air flow -- but my DD Series 60 shows no signs of lacking sufficient air.

I've seen some sort of scoop at the top rear on some coaches with the 8v92. The problem is that if it faces forward (for the ram air effect) it tends to pick up undesirable debris. I think the main effort is to ensure that the engine has good access to fresh air from outside the engine compartment. Since the 8v92 (and 6v92) are all turbocharged, the ram air effect isn't especially important. Sufficient cross section and control of air-movement restrictions for what ever reason are important for ideal combustion.

FWIW, I often wonder how the generator manages to work with its very restricted source of combustion air inside the sound compartment. (Indeed, my generator starts putting out tons of black smoke when the air cleaner is only a little dirty...)

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:

Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air causes 

restriction of flow.Wind  noise is a visual result  of air 

turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that 

collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and 

reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was no 

restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its 

self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than 

smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water 

restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling 

silt.  I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics??? But 

turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has  

density lost??

 I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I 

understood the advantage to be  'air just cooled'.?????

Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for 

another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids. 

it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence.

GregoryO'Connor

94ptRomolandCa

  --- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", Wilhelmus Schreurs 

wrote:

When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air 

cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed.  I believe 

this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does 

not appear to get enough air from the outside.

Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2 

inches = 40 sq in.

Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches, 

this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter 

should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)

Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??

What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it 

is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it 

should be getting the colder air from outside?

Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Bill 84 FC 35 SB  "$quanderlodge"

Terrace, B.C.  Canada

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[PM7088@...]

Turbo Diesels are by nature very "Air Rich", in that respect they have very
different needs than a gas engine. Putting in 25% more air will yield nothing.
To get more power is simple, just add fuel. Different injectors {or timing on
computer controlled engines) is how you do it. Want economy? Reduce the fuel
input.
How fast you want to go? = How much fuel you want to burn?

Pete


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Pete Masterson
> While I worked at NASA Ames Research Center, I learned that "fluid
> dynamics" often applies very directly to air flow. So, observations
> about hydrodynamics very often directly applies.
>
> Air for combustion is best obtained from the coolest source. On my DD
> Series 60 (and I think the 8v92s) there is an "air charge cooler"
> that is used to cool the air after it passes through the turbocharger
> and before it goes into the combustion chamber. Cooling the air makes
> it denser. Compressing air makes it hotter.
>
> I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal reports of improved 3208
> performance by routing air intake to the front of the engine
> compartment, away from the behind the radiator. (Other FC owners with
> experience on this point would be far more help.) With a naturally
> aspirated front engine, a proper shape of the air inlet can result in
> "ram air" that gives a slight power boost. Ram air is much less of
> an issue with a turbo charger, but would have a minor positive impact.
>
> On the PT models, getting air from outside the engine compartment is
> ideal. I believe my coach has its combustion air inlet on the curb
> side above the large grate side access door. There is no scoop or
> other effort to increase air flow -- but my DD Series 60 shows no
> signs of lacking sufficient air.
>
> I've seen some sort of scoop at the top rear on some coaches with the
> 8v92. The problem is that if it faces forward (for the ram air
> effect) it tends to pick up undesirable debris. I think the main
> effort is to ensure that the engine has good access to fresh air from
> outside the engine compartment. Since the 8v92 (and 6v92) are all
> turbocharged, the ram air effect isn't especially important.
> Sufficient cross section and control of air-movement restrictions for
> what ever reason are important for ideal combustion.
>
> FWIW, I often wonder how the generator manages to work with its very
> restricted source of combustion air inside the sound compartment.
> (Indeed, my generator starts putting out tons of black smoke when the
> air cleaner is only a little dirty...)
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:
>
> > Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air causes
> > restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air
> > turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that
> > collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and
> > reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was no
> > restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its
> > self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than
> > smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water
> > restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling
> > silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics??? But
> > turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has
> > density lost??
> >
> > I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I
> > understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.?????
> >
> > Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for
> > another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids.
> > it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence.
> >
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptRomolandCa
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air
> > cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe
> > this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does
> > not appear to get enough air from the outside.
> >> Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2
> > inches = 40 sq in.
> >> Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches,
> > this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter
> > should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)
> >> Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??
> >> What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it
> > is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it
> > should be getting the colder air from outside?
> >> Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated.
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> >> Terrace, B.C. Canada
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > __________________________________________________________________
> >> Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required.
> > Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
> > http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

[Scott Forman]

My generator has a hose-just lik a normal radiator hose-that extends
from the air cleaner outside of the gen compartment to pick up fresh
air.

Scott Forman
86 PT38
Memphis

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> While I worked at NASA Ames Research Center, I learned that "fluid
> dynamics" often applies very directly to air flow. So,
observations
> about hydrodynamics very often directly applies.
>
> Air for combustion is best obtained from the coolest source. On my
DD
> Series 60 (and I think the 8v92s) there is an "air charge cooler"
> that is used to cool the air after it passes through the
turbocharger
> and before it goes into the combustion chamber. Cooling the air
makes
> it denser. Compressing air makes it hotter.
>
> I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal reports of improved 3208
> performance by routing air intake to the front of the engine
> compartment, away from the behind the radiator. (Other FC owners
with
> experience on this point would be far more help.) With a naturally
> aspirated front engine, a proper shape of the air inlet can result
in
> "ram air" that gives a slight power boost. Ram air is much less
of
> an issue with a turbo charger, but would have a minor positive
impact.
>
> On the PT models, getting air from outside the engine compartment
is
> ideal. I believe my coach has its combustion air inlet on the curb
> side above the large grate side access door. There is no scoop or
> other effort to increase air flow -- but my DD Series 60 shows no
> signs of lacking sufficient air.
>
> I've seen some sort of scoop at the top rear on some coaches with
the
> 8v92. The problem is that if it faces forward (for the ram air
> effect) it tends to pick up undesirable debris. I think the main
> effort is to ensure that the engine has good access to fresh air
from
> outside the engine compartment. Since the 8v92 (and 6v92) are all
> turbocharged, the ram air effect isn't especially important.
> Sufficient cross section and control of air-movement restrictions
for
> what ever reason are important for ideal combustion.
>
> FWIW, I often wonder how the generator manages to work with its
very
> restricted source of combustion air inside the sound compartment.
> (Indeed, my generator starts putting out tons of black smoke when
the
> air cleaner is only a little dirty...)
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:
>
> > Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air
causes
> > restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air
> > turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that
> > collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and
> > reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was
no
> > restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its
> > self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner
than
> > smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water
> > restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling
> > silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics???
But
> > turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has
> > density lost??
> >
> > I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air.
I
> > understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.?????
> >
> > Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for
> > another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids.
> > it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence.
> >
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptRomolandCa
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air
> > cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I
believe
> > this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does
> > not appear to get enough air from the outside.
> >> Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2
> > inches = 40 sq in.
> >> Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches,
> > this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the
filter
> > should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)
> >> Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??
> >> What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now
it
> > is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe
it
> > should be getting the colder air from outside?
> >> Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated.
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> >> Terrace, B.C. Canada
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > __________________________________________________________________
> >> Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required.
> > Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
> > http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

[Glenn Allen]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
Wind noise is a visual result of air
> turbulance??? >
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa

Gregory,

I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual
and less audible.

Glenn
1986 PT40

[Gregory OConnor]

Glenn, Age is not the reason for my inability to articulate and
frequent mistakes. 'Abundance of attempts' and the 'law of averages'
are. I just 'talk/post too much', it is 'bound to happen'.


GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Allen"
wrote:
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
> wrote:
> Wind noise is a visual result of air
> > turbulance??? >
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptRomolandCa
>
> Gregory,
>
> I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual
> and less audible.
>
> Glenn
> 1986 PT40
>

[Glenn Allen]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
>
> Glenn, Age is not the reason for my inability to articulate and
> frequent mistakes. 'Abundance of attempts' and the 'law of averages'
> are. I just 'talk/post too much', it is 'bound to happen'.
>
>
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
Gregory,

My comment was an attempt at humor and nothing personal was implied. Over the
last
six months of lurking with a few post, I have enjoyed reading your posts and
your since of
humor. As my frequency of posts increases you will willget a glimpse of the
errors of my
ways. Howeve, rest assured that I always hope my contributions will make a
positive
impact on the Bird community.

I do hope to meet you and the many others at future gatherings.

Thanks,

Glenn
1986 PT40
Marietta, GA

> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Allen"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
> > wrote:
> > Wind noise is a visual result of air
> > > turbulance??? >
> > > GregoryO'Connor
> > > 94ptRomolandCa
> >
> > Gregory,
> >
> > I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual
> > and less audible.
> >
> > Glenn
> > 1986 PT40
> >
>

[Gregory OConnor]

Glenn, I understood it as humor.

It takes quite a bit for me to be offended. Just today an elderly
women got close when she ;called me an idiot ;threw a newspaper at
me and ;told me to get the hell out of her house. She's just lucky
tomorrow isnt MothersDay.

Lookforward to meeting you also,
Greg



"Glenn Allen" wrote:
Gregory,

My comment was an attempt at humor and nothing personal was implied.
Over the last six months of lurking with a few post, I have enjoyed
reading your posts and your since of humor. As my frequency of posts
increases you will willget a glimpse of the errors of my ways.
Howeve, rest assured that I always hope my contributions will make a
positive impact on the Bird community.
I do hope to meet you and the many others at future gatherings.

Thanks,

Glenn
1986 PT40
Marietta, GA

[Wilhelmus Schreurs]

Glenn:
You will be in for a treat LOL.
Would you believe he is no different when he is talking, so just be quick witted hehe.
Can't wait to meet Tim and Greg again.

Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
Terrace, B.C. Canada

----- Original Message
----
From: Glenn Allen
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 1:05:28 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Air to Turbo

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Gregory OConnor"

wrote:

>

> Glenn, Age is not the reason for my inability to articulate and

> frequent mistakes. 'Abundance of attempts' and the 'law of averages'

> are. I just 'talk/post too much', it is 'bound to happen'.

>

>

> GregoryO'Connor

> 94ptRomolandCa

>

Gregory,



My comment was an attempt at humor and nothing personal was implied. Over the last

six months of lurking with a few post, I have enjoyed reading your posts and your since of

humor. As my frequency of posts increases you will willget a glimpse of the errors of my

ways. Howeve, rest assured that I always hope my contributions will make a positive

impact on the Bird community.



I do hope to meet you and the many others at future gatherings.



Thanks,



Glenn

1986 PT40

Marietta, GA



> --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Glenn Allen"

> wrote:

> >

> > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Gregory OConnor"

> > wrote:

> > Wind noise is a visual result of air

> > > turbulance?? ? >

> > > GregoryO'Connor

> > > 94ptRomolandCa

> >

> > Gregory,

> >

> > I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual

> > and less audible.

> >

> > Glenn

> > 1986 PT40

> >

>

---

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