WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

DEAR FORUM MEMBERS:
NO one is talking about subject matter but I just lived a year in
Australia and filled my tank each week with "auto gas" available at the
pump at all service stations all over Australia. Petrol(gasoline was
$1.70/litre and "natural" gas was 60 cents a litre.... quite a
savings. Our toads take gasoline and can easily be converted
to "duel fuel" for less than $2000, but I do not hear anything about
it in the good ole USA except Honda CX has a high pressure gas car
which is different than low pressure "auto gas" in Australia. Hope I
don't upset anybody by mentioning this and please do not tell the oil
lobby where I live.
Regards,
Hank
90SP36

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

Just a bit more on this:
The Australian government provided $2000 to anyone converting their
auto to "auotgas" making it able to run on Petrol(gasoline) and
autogas...so I paid $2100 for the conversion and the wife got $2000
back from the Governemnt...net $100 to convert to "autogas" and start
paying 60 cents per litre instead of $1.70 per litre for petrol. We
are a great country..WHY NOT HERE?????
I do not mean this to be any way political, just suggesting a way we
can save money on our gasoline toads ..AND the way the "plastic" owners
can save $$$ on their V-10's..460's and 454's....
just a suggestion..No offense intended.
Regards,
Hank
90SP36







--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>
> DEAR FORUM MEMBERS:
> NO one is talking about subject matter but I just lived a year in
> Australia and filled my tank each week with "auto gas" available at
the
> pump at all service stations all over Australia. Petrol(gasoline was
> $1.70/litre and "natural" gas was 60 cents a litre.... quite a
> savings. Our toads take gasoline and can easily be converted
> to "duel fuel" for less than $2000, but I do not hear anything about
> it in the good ole USA except Honda CX has a high pressure gas car
> which is different than low pressure "auto gas" in Australia. Hope I
> don't upset anybody by mentioning this and please do not tell the oil
> lobby where I live.
> Regards,
> Hank
> 90SP36
>

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

anybody wonder if airplane JET ENGINES can run on "AUTOGAS?"

Regards,
Hank
90SP36





--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>
> Just a bit more on this:
> The Australian government provided $2000 to anyone converting their
> auto to "auotgas" making it able to run on Petrol(gasoline) and
> autogas...so I paid $2100 for the conversion and the wife got $2000
> back from the Governemnt...net $100 to convert to "autogas" and
start
> paying 60 cents per litre instead of $1.70 per litre for petrol.
We
> are a great country..WHY NOT HERE?????
> I do not mean this to be any way political, just suggesting a way
we
> can save money on our gasoline toads ..AND the way the "plastic"
owners
> can save $$$ on their V-10's..460's and 454's....
> just a suggestion..No offense intended.
> Regards,
> Hank
> 90SP36
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
> wrote:
> >
> > DEAR FORUM MEMBERS:
> > NO one is talking about subject matter but I just lived a year
in
> > Australia and filled my tank each week with "auto gas" available
at
> the
> > pump at all service stations all over Australia. Petrol(gasoline
was
> > $1.70/litre and "natural" gas was 60 cents a litre.... quite a
> > savings. Our toads take gasoline and can easily be converted
> > to "duel fuel" for less than $2000, but I do not hear anything
about
> > it in the good ole USA except Honda CX has a high pressure gas
car
> > which is different than low pressure "auto gas" in Australia.
Hope I
> > don't upset anybody by mentioning this and please do not tell the
oil
> > lobby where I live.
> > Regards,
> > Hank
> > 90SP36
> >
>

[Pete Masterson]

There are a few commercial fleets and transit busses that have been converted to using natural gas instead of gasoline. In my area, there are a handful of natural gas refuel depots, and hardly any are open to the general public. A few people have converted vehicles and set up a filling system in their home (from the natural gas service for their furnace, etc.) This limits the vehicle to local use (for commuting) as it is generally not possible to 'fill up' elsewhere. Currently, this also avoids paying the taxes charged to vehicle fuels -- that is likely to be changed if such using natural gas becomes common, significantly reducing potential savings.

I suspect the major problem is one of infrastructure. In the US, there is a huge cost related to outfitting service stations throughout the country to handle the additional product. Indeed, while most stations offer three "grades" of gasoline, the middle grade is actually blended on the spot from regular and premium.

Keep in mind, too, that it is easier and a significantly lower investment to change the infrastructure in Australia. The population of Australia is a little more than half the population of California. The latest estimate available (July 07) puts Australia at 20.5 million vs. 301 million for the U.S. 

That means, there are a LOT more service stations necessary to serve the population and the investment in a change would be huge. 

Besides, you can buy a lot of gas for $2000 even at $4 per gallon that's 500 gallons. With my toad that's nearly 12,000 miles of driving -- more than I put on the car in most years. 

The price differential between gasoline and natural gas (per btu of energy) isn't likely to be as significant as is the case in Australia. We are already suffering a shortage of "cheap" natural gas and prices are climbing rapidly. So, the amount of savings is probably not all that large. Don't forget that a large portion of the price of gasoline at the pump is taxes. Australia may be "encouraging" natural gas use by reducing the taxes on it. I can't imagine that our government would be as likely to waive vehicle fuel taxes on natural gas, should it become popular. So, in the end, the amount of potential cost savings might not justify the expense of the infrastructure changes or the changes to individual vehicles.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:18 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:

DEAR FORUM MEMBERS:

NO  one is talking about subject matter but I just lived a year in 

Australia and filled my tank each week with "auto gas" available at the 

pump at all service stations all over Australia. Petrol(gasoline was 

$1.70/litre and "natural" gas was  60 cents a litre.... quite a 

savings.     Our toads take gasoline and can easily be converted 

to "duel fuel" for less than $2000, but I do not hear anything about 

it  in the good ole USA except Honda CX has a high pressure gas car 

which is different than low pressure "auto gas" in Australia. Hope I 

don't upset anybody by mentioning this and please do not tell the oil 

lobby where I live.

Regards,

Hank

90SP36

[Pete Masterson]

Such engines can be designed. Many power stations run "gas turbines" for generating electricity. These are essentially the same as jet engines used on aircraft. The only engineering challenge is to carry enough natural gas on board an aircraft to have a decent range --- and, still have room for passengers. The downside is that natural gas, unless highly compressed, is very bulky for the amount of energy carried in the volume required for storage.

Pete Masterson

510-222-6743 (Voice & Fax)

510-407-0422 (cell)

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:

anybody wonder if airplane JET ENGINES  can run on "AUTOGAS?"

Regards,

Hank

90SP36

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

Pete:
Appreciate your comments. I am not an engineer so I do not know
about capacities/volumes etc. However, my 85 liter stainless steel
LPG tank in my Toyota looks about the same size as my 100 litre
Petrol tank underneath my car in Australia. I get over 600 kilometers
out of a tank of LPG.
Regards,
Hank
90SP36




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> Such engines can be designed. Many power stations run "gas
turbines"
> for generating electricity. These are essentially the same as jet
> engines used on aircraft. The only engineering challenge is to
carry
> enough natural gas on board an aircraft to have a decent range ---
> and, still have room for passengers. The downside is that natural
> gas, unless highly compressed, is very bulky for the amount of
energy
> carried in the volume required for storage.
>
> Pete Masterson
> 510-222-6743 (Voice & Fax)
> 510-407-0422 (cell)
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:
>
> > anybody wonder if airplane JET ENGINES can run on "AUTOGAS?"
> >
> > Regards,
> > Hank
> > 90SP36
> >
>

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

Pete:
Just one more thing, then I have to get to a POKER tourney.
The LPG in my car is LOW PRESSSURE whereas the gas we use at home
in our furnaces and in the HONDA CX is HIGH PRESSURE.
Australian "autogas" is LOW pressure.

LOL
Regards,
Hank
90SP36


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>
> Pete:
> Appreciate your comments. I am not an engineer so I do not know
> about capacities/volumes etc. However, my 85 liter stainless steel
> LPG tank in my Toyota looks about the same size as my 100 litre
> Petrol tank underneath my car in Australia. I get over 600
kilometers
> out of a tank of LPG.
> Regards,
> Hank
> 90SP36
>
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
> wrote:
> >
> > Such engines can be designed. Many power stations run "gas
> turbines"
> > for generating electricity. These are essentially the same as
jet
> > engines used on aircraft. The only engineering challenge is to
> carry
> > enough natural gas on board an aircraft to have a decent range ---

> > and, still have room for passengers. The downside is that
natural
> > gas, unless highly compressed, is very bulky for the amount of
> energy
> > carried in the volume required for storage.
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > 510-222-6743 (Voice & Fax)
> > 510-407-0422 (cell)
> > aeonix1@
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:
> >
> > > anybody wonder if airplane JET ENGINES can run on "AUTOGAS?"
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Hank
> > > 90SP36
> > >
> >
>

[Leroy A. Eckert]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>Here are some CNP outlets and method of access. I thought about
converting my old Mercedes but haven't yet. Cannot determine if it is
economically and practically feasible.
http://find.mapmuse.com/interest/cng
>
>
> Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Royale
Danlonega, GA
Smoke N Mirrors
>
>
> Pete:
> Just one more thing, then I have to get to a POKER tourney.
> The LPG in my car is LOW PRESSSURE whereas the gas we use at home
> in our furnaces and in the HONDA CX is HIGH PRESSURE.
> Australian "autogas" is LOW pressure.
>
> LOL
> Regards,
> Hank
> 90SP36
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
> wrote:
> >
> > Pete:
> > Appreciate your comments. I am not an engineer so I do not know
> > about capacities/volumes etc. However, my 85 liter stainless steel
> > LPG tank in my Toyota looks about the same size as my 100 litre
> > Petrol tank underneath my car in Australia. I get over 600
> kilometers
> > out of a tank of LPG.
> > Regards,
> > Hank
> > 90SP36
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Such engines can be designed. Many power stations run "gas
> > turbines"
> > > for generating electricity. These are essentially the same as
> jet
> > > engines used on aircraft. The only engineering challenge is to
> > carry
> > > enough natural gas on board an aircraft to have a decent range ---
>
> > > and, still have room for passengers. The downside is that
> natural
> > > gas, unless highly compressed, is very bulky for the amount of
> > energy
> > > carried in the volume required for storage.
> > >
> > > Pete Masterson
> > > 510-222-6743 (Voice & Fax)
> > > 510-407-0422 (cell)
> > > aeonix1@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:
> > >
> > > > anybody wonder if airplane JET ENGINES can run on "AUTOGAS?"
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Hank
> > > > 90SP36
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Pete Masterson]

In aircraft, the two issues are the weight of the fuel container and the amount of fuel (for range) that can be carried. The higher the pressure, the more natural gas can be carried. However, the higher the pressure, the the heavier the container must be. This is much less of an issue for ground based vehicles. For example, with most passenger cars, they are rarely filled to full weight capacity, so the loss of carrying capacity caused by heavy fuel containers isn't a serious issue.

In commercial passenger jet aircraft, the fuel capacity is pretty amazing. A Boeing 767, for example, carries nearly 24,000 US gallons or about 91,000 liters of kerosine-like fuel. As it is, Jet-A, the most used fuel has a relatively high flash point and with current additives is not as likely (as some other potential fuel choices) to catch fire in an accident. 

Natural gas, at whatever pressure, in those quantities, represents a very significantly higher explosion risk under the wrong circumstances. Indeed, when a "bomb train" exploded in Roseville, CA back in the 70s, the resulting fire set off a number of LP Gas freight cars that were in the rail yard at the time. The explosions of these LP gas freight cars was substantially more energetic than any of the bomb-car explosions.

I note that the capacity of a typical rail car of LP gas is near the same fuel quantity carried by an airliner. Since these cars weigh over 200,000 lbs. to safely contain that quantity of gas, it might represent a fairly significant 'hit' to the weight of an airliner. For example, the maximum take off weight of a 767 is just under 400,000 lbs. Currently the weight of a full tank of Jet A in a 767 is about 164,000 lbs. So, the more substantial fuel container required for pressurized natural gas will simply cut the load capacity of the aircraft and cause it to be much less economic to operate.

At the heart of your query is actually "what can be done to reduce fuel cost?" Natural gas is an alternative to gasoline, but it is still a petroleum-well produced product. In the U.S., natural gas supplies are actually quite tight, and even a small increase in demand is likely to drive prices much higher and probably they will then surpass the cost of gasoline. 

Without getting into the politics, the only way to change the direction of the current prices is to either increase production or reduce demand -- or both. I'll observe that speculators have driven crude oil prices higher over the past few months to levels that aren't justified in the long term. Eventually, this speculative bubble will burst (they always do), but, of course, no one knows when it will occur. The psychological effect of simply starting the process to allow U.S. producers to increase production (by, for example, drilling off our coasts) might be sufficient to burst the speculative bubble (these are always caused by psychology rather than underlying market values). Also, taking steps to increase the strength of the U.S. dollar (the currency that crude oil is price in world wide) will also tend to deflate crude prices. The recent "pause" in Fed interest rate reductions is a tiny first step in that direction. (This is an indication that the Fed will start to raise interest rates in the future, which will further strengthen the US dollar relative to other currencies. Soft economies in Europe will also cause EU interest rates to be lowered, also giving strength to the US dollar.

The issues and problems you raise are highly complex -- and there's a lot of disagreement about what to do based on political agendas rather than cool, hard, economic analysis. But we'll all survive the current crisis and "things" will eventually work out as we adjust to the conditions.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:

Pete:

Appreciate your comments.  I am not an engineer so I do not know 

about capacities/volumes etc.  However, my 85 liter stainless steel 

LPG tank in my Toyota looks about the same size as my 100 litre 

Petrol tank underneath my car in Australia. I get over 600 kilometers 

out of a tank of LPG.

Regards,

Hank

90SP36

--- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", Pete Masterson  

wrote:

Such engines can be designed. Many power stations run "gas 

turbines"  

for generating electricity. These are essentially the same as jet  

engines used on aircraft. The only engineering challenge is to 

carry  

enough natural gas on board an aircraft to have a decent range ---  

and, still have room for passengers. The downside is that natural  

gas, unless highly compressed, is very bulky for the amount of 

energy  

carried in the volume required for storage.

Pete Masterson

510-222-6743 (Voice & Fax)

510-407-0422 (cell)

aeonix1@...

On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:

anybody wonder if airplane JET ENGINES  can run on "AUTOGAS?"

Regards,

Hank

90SP36

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[Steve Pfiffner]

There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas) and LPG
(evidently called Autogas in
Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same thing.

Steve
Wannabee