WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???

[Jack & Donna Smith]

When we were in the Netherlands a few years ago, we had a Mazda 626
that used either Gasoline or "AutoGas", which I belive was Propane.
Had the Autogas tank that almost fully filled the trunk. A toggle
switch on the dash which selacted which you wanted to use.. We used
the train when we traveled outside of the country, so I dont know if
the other countrys used "AutoGas", but I suspect they do...
Jack Smith
1973FC31
HOTHOT SoCal.

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>
> DEAR FORUM MEMBERS:
> NO one is talking about subject matter but I just lived a year in
> Australia and filled my tank each week with "auto gas" available
at the
> pump at all service stations all over Australia. Petrol(gasoline
was
> $1.70/litre and "natural" gas was 60 cents a litre.... quite a
> savings. Our toads take gasoline and can easily be converted
> to "duel fuel" for less than $2000, but I do not hear anything
about
> it in the good ole USA except Honda CX has a high pressure gas
car
> which is different than low pressure "auto gas" in Australia. Hope
I
> don't upset anybody by mentioning this and please do not tell the
oil
> lobby where I live.
> Regards,
> Hank
> 90SP36
>

[Jack & Donna Smith]

When we were in the Netherlands a few years ago, we had a Mazda 626
that used either Gasoline or "AutoGas", which I belive was Propane.
Had the Autogas tank that almost fully filled the trunk. A toggle
switch on the dash which selacted which you wanted to use.. We used
the train when we traveled outside of the country, so I dont know if
the other countrys used "AutoGas", but I suspect they do...
Jack Smith
1973FC31
HOTHOT SoCal.

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>
> DEAR FORUM MEMBERS:
> NO one is talking about subject matter but I just lived a year in
> Australia and filled my tank each week with "auto gas" available
at the
> pump at all service stations all over Australia. Petrol(gasoline
was
> $1.70/litre and "natural" gas was 60 cents a litre.... quite a
> savings. Our toads take gasoline and can easily be converted
> to "duel fuel" for less than $2000, but I do not hear anything
about
> it in the good ole USA except Honda CX has a high pressure gas
car
> which is different than low pressure "auto gas" in Australia. Hope
I
> don't upset anybody by mentioning this and please do not tell the
oil
> lobby where I live.
> Regards,
> Hank
> 90SP36
>

[Leroy Eckert]

Most likely on my part. I have never placed a shrimp on the barbi with the Aussies. My supposition was Propane is readily available where CNG is not. So-----don't know. I know the gas they bring to my home is not free by any stretch and certainly is not any better money wise than Dino fuel. If you have a natural gas line at home you can fill up in the garage by installing a compressor. If I had natural gas I would probably look into it further. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Royale Dahlonega, GA Smoke N Mirrors --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner wrote: From: Steve Pfiffner Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA??? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:11 PM There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas) and LPG (evidently called Autogas in Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same thing. Steve Wannabee

[Pete Masterson]

Yes, I was confused by the "autogas" thing. I thought it was CNG. However most of the points still apply, although LPG is slightly heavier per gallon. 

Natural gas is primarily methane (CH4) (with small amounts of a panoply of more complex gases -- butane, propane, etc.) while LPG is a mixture of various gases with the major component being either (or both) butane (C4H10) or/and propane (C3H8). Natural gas, being primarily methane, is considered a very clean fossil fuel due to the small carbon content (1 atom for every 4 hydrogen) as it produces the least CO2 per unit of weight of any in this class of fossil fuel.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 21, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Steve Pfiffner wrote:

There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas) and LPG 

(evidently called Autogas in

Australia and butane/propane  in the US) are not really the same thing.

 Steve

 Wannabee

[Steve Pfiffner]

If you really want a natural gas compressor I just happen to have one you
can have
2.5cfm 230v single phase complete with filtering for oil and water and high
pressure manifolding.
Worked fine the last time I ran it free fob Dallas

http://tinyurl.com/6gznkp

Steve
Wannabee



----- Original Message -----
From: "Leroy Eckert"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS
STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???


Most likely on my part. I have never placed a shrimp on the barbi with the
Aussies. My supposition was Propane is readily available where CNG is not.
So-----don't know. I know the gas they bring to my home is not free by any
stretch and certainly is not any better money wise than Dino fuel. If you
have a natural gas line at home you can fill up in the garage by installing
a compressor. If I had natural gas I would probably look into it further.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Royale
Dahlonega, GA
Smoke N Mirrors

--- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner wrote:
From: Steve Pfiffner
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS
STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:11 PM











There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas)
and LPG

(evidently called Autogas in

Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same thing.



Steve

Wannabee






























--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date: 6/20/2008
11:52 AM

[Leroy Eckert]

I don't have natural gas but I suspicion someone in CA does. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Royale Dahlonega, GA Smoke N Mirrors --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner wrote: From: Steve Pfiffner Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA??? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 5:09 PM If you really want a natural gas compressor I just happen to have one you can have 2.5cfm 230v single phase complete with filtering for oil and water and high pressure manifolding. Worked fine the last time I ran it free fob Dallas http://tinyurl. com/6gznkp Steve Wannabee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leroy Eckert" <"jwasnewski%40yahoo.com"> To: <"WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA??? Most likely on my part. I have never placed a shrimp on the barbi with the Aussies. My supposition was Propane is readily available where CNG is not. So-----don't know. I know the gas they bring to my home is not free by any stretch and certainly is not any better money wise than Dino fuel. If you have a natural gas line at home you can fill up in the garage by installing a compressor. If I had natural gas I would probably look into it further. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Royale Dahlonega, GA Smoke N Mirrors --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner <"madrone1%40hughes.net"> wrote: From: Steve Pfiffner <"madrone1%40hughes.net"> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA??? To: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com" Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:11 PM There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas) and LPG (evidently called Autogas in Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same thing. Steve Wannabee ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date: 6/20/2008 11:52 AM

[Leroy Eckert]

Alright Pete, it has been 40 years since I did my college chemistry classes and I have not done a damn thing with it since. I have a question; don't mean to get into a chemistry class on the forum; just interested in something. If finished bio-diesel has a published average formula of C19H36O2 and average common diesel has a formula of C12H23 how is bio-diesel better for the air we breath? Does something happen in the combustion chamber?? Are the farmers stroking me?? CH4 is clean so to speak. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Royale Dahlonega, GA Smoke N Mirrors --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Pete Masterson wrote: From: Pete Masterson Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA??? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:59 PM Yes, I was confused by the "autogas" thing. I thought it was CNG. However most of the points still apply, although LPG is slightly heavier per gallon. Natural gas is primarily methane (CH4) (with small amounts of a panoply of more complex gases -- butane, propane, etc.) while LPG is a mixture of various gases with the major component being either (or both) butane (C4H10) or/and propane (C3H8). Natural gas, being primarily methane, is considered a very clean fossil fuel due to the small carbon content (1 atom for every 4 hydrogen) as it produces the least CO2 per unit of weight of any in this class of fossil fuel. Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA "aeonix1@mac.com" On Jun 21, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Steve Pfiffner wrote: There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas) and LPG (evidently called Autogas in Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same thing. Steve Wannabee

[Pete Masterson]

LeRoy, I'm not a chemist, I only play one on TV...

Frankly, I have my doubts about some of the ecology/greenhouse gas claims for biodiesel -- but there is almost a religious fervor on the topic, so I hesitate to take it on...

The number following the "C" is the number of carbon atoms in the molecule. In perfect combustion, every carbon atom will hook-up with 2 oxygen atoms to create C02 and each hydrogen atom will join with 2 oxygen atoms to create H20 (or water vapor). In general, the ratio of Carbon to Hydrogen is one way to measure the efficiency of greenhouse gas reduction. Methane (natural gas) is highly efficient with 1 carbon atom to every 4 hydrogen atoms (CH4) so the ration is .25. (Keep in mind, no combustion is perfect in the real world. But for the analysis it's ok to pretend that it is.)

Assuming the molecular formulas are correct (I didn't check them) we're comparing 12/23 vs. 19/36 or solving the math: .522 vs .528 (figures rounded) this means that, as far as greenhouse gases are concerned, there's about a gnat's worth of difference -- actually in favor of diesel! The last little 02 in the biodiesel formula appears to suggest that a couple of the hydrogen atoms are already oxygenated -- or less likely (carbon likes to double-bond with oxygen so it's not likely to be where the 02 connects) one of the carbon atoms carries the two oxygen atoms (I didn't look up the chemical structure). In either event, the "improvement" over diesel is pretty minimal, at best, but due to the large number of gallons consumed each year, it may equate to a measurable difference.

There are other, long, economic justifications about bio-diesel and why it's good for the environment. Personally, I'm rather skeptical. Indeed, around the end of the 90s, soybean varieties were developed that could be grown in the tropics. Biodiesel (not from recycled vegetable oil sources) is often processed from soybean oil. The Amazon rain forest is being stripped in vast areas to grow soybeans -- now the number 2 export from Brazil where it mostly goes to Europe to be converted into biodiesel. Personally, I think this is a poor trade off. (Doubts about my info? See the January 2007 issue of National Geographic.)

So, I'm very skeptical about the claims of the advantages of biodiesel. (I owned a print shop in the late 80s when "vegetable based printing inks" became suddenly "very green." Ink is made of pigment (carbon black for black ink) and oil. The heavy, greasy oil used in ink is a byproduct of oil refining. If it isn't used as printing ink it is mixed with lighter oils and burned as "bunker fuel." No oil is refined to create the heavy grease used in printing ink (it wouldn't be very economic). However the greens claimed that vegetable oil based printing ink was "better." So now the printing industry has almost completely converted to vegetable oil based inks, with an enormous economic cost of the conversion (new inks and other new press chemistry had to be developed, etc.). However, the primary source of volatile organic compounds (that form into smog) in printing doesn't come from the ink, but rather comes from the isopropyl alcohol used in the fountain solution and the solvents used to clean ink from presses. The printing industry was already moving toward reducing and eliminating those sources of VOCs when the soybean ink fad hit. Today, printers have significantly reduced the release of VOCs. Soy ink had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

But, the farmers are happy. We all pay a little more for anything that has printing on it. We can all feel good about using "renewable" vegetable oil in our printing ink. And, I'm most certainly a skeptic about soy based fuel/oil products. Soybean oil is great for deep frying french fries, however.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 21, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

Alright Pete, it has been 40 years since I did my college chemistry classes and I have not done a damn thing with it since.  I have a question; don't mean to get into a chemistry class on the forum; just interested in something. If finished bio-diesel has a published average formula of C19H36O2 and average common diesel has a formula of C12H23 how is bio-diesel better for the air we breath? Does something happen in the combustion chamber?? Are the farmers stroking me??  CH4 is clean so to speak. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Royale Dahlonega, GA Smoke N Mirrors

[Morey Zuber]

Just a little more on flying aircraft on alternative fuel. I read
there is a pilot program to liquify coal into aircraft fuel & it works
and some commercial jets are now flying on this fuel.

I also know that if coal can be converted into jet fuel (kerosene) it
can also be turned into diesel which would be distributed through the
existing stations.

Since we have huge existing supplies of coal, maybe someone should
push this approach. No offense meant.

MoreyZ
99 LXi 41
Full timing from Green Cove Springs, FL

[Dan Williams]

I am interested in the gas compressor but
how much is shipping to Jackson,
MS?

Thanks,

Dan

---

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Steve Pfiffner

Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:10
PM

To:
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum]
Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???

If you really want a natural gas compressor I just
happen to have one you

can have

2.5cfm 230v single phase complete with filtering for oil and water and high

pressure manifolding.

Worked fine the last time I ran it free fob Dallas



http://tinyurl.com/6gznkp



Steve

Wannabee



----- Original Message -----

From: "Leroy Eckert" <"jwasnewski%40yahoo.com">

To: <"WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com">

Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS

STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???



Most likely on my part. I have never placed a shrimp on the barbi with the

Aussies. My supposition was Propane is readily available where CNG is not.

So-----don't know. I know the gas they bring to my home is not free by any

stretch and certainly is not any better money wise than Dino fuel. If you

have a natural gas line at home you can fill up in the garage by installing

a compressor. If I had natural gas I would probably look into it further.



Leroy Eckert

1990 WB-40 Royale

Dahlonega, GA

Smoke N Mirrors



--- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner <"madrone1%40hughes.net">
wrote:

From: Steve Pfiffner <"madrone1%40hughes.net">

Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS

STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???

To: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"

Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:11 PM



There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas)

and LPG



(evidently called Autogas in



Australia and butane/propane
in the US)
are not really the same thing.



Steve



Wannabee



----------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date: 6/20/2008

11:52 AM