WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???

[Leroy Eckert]

Thank you sir. I had it mostly correct in my mind. I looked up the formulas on the internet; on average they are correct. I am with you. Formulas typically do not lie since they have been proven over time. So, I now can present the published formulas for the two products for mathematical comparison next time I hear some sort of hoopla about bio-diesel being the next coming of Christ and let the person mathematically explain the difference. Thanks so much for you eloquent explanation. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Royale Dahlonega, GA Smoke N Mirrors I would rather eat soybean patties. --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Pete Masterson wrote: From: Pete Masterson Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA??? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 7:13 PM LeRoy, I'm not a chemist, I only play one on TV... Frankly, I have my doubts about some of the ecology/greenhouse gas claims for biodiesel -- but there is almost a religious fervor on the topic, so I hesitate to take it on... The number following the "C" is the number of carbon atoms in the molecule. In perfect combustion, every carbon atom will hook-up with 2 oxygen atoms to create C02 and each hydrogen atom will join with 2 oxygen atoms to create H20 (or water vapor). In general, the ratio of Carbon to Hydrogen is one way to measure the efficiency of greenhouse gas reduction. Methane (natural gas) is highly efficient with 1 carbon atom to every 4 hydrogen atoms (CH4) so the ration is .25. (Keep in mind, no combustion is perfect in the real world. But for the analysis it's ok to pretend that it is.) Assuming the molecular formulas are correct (I didn't check them) we're comparing 12/23 vs. 19/36 or solving the math: .522 vs .528 (figures rounded) this means that, as far as greenhouse gases are concerned, there's about a gnat's worth of difference -- actually in favor of diesel! The last little 02 in the biodiesel formula appears to suggest that a couple of the hydrogen atoms are already oxygenated -- or less likely (carbon likes to double-bond with oxygen so it's not likely to be where the 02 connects) one of the carbon atoms carries the two oxygen atoms (I didn't look up the chemical structure). In either event, the "improvement" over diesel is pretty minimal, at best, but due to the large number of gallons consumed each year, it may equate to a measurable difference. There are other, long, economic justifications about bio-diesel and why it's good for the environment. Personally, I'm rather skeptical. Indeed, around the end of the 90s, soybean varieties were developed that could be grown in the tropics. Biodiesel (not from recycled vegetable oil sources) is often processed from soybean oil. The Amazon rain forest is being stripped in vast areas to grow soybeans -- now the number 2 export from Brazil where it mostly goes to Europe to be converted into biodiesel. Personally, I think this is a poor trade off. (Doubts about my info? See the January 2007 issue of National Geographic.) So, I'm very skeptical about the claims of the advantages of biodiesel. (I owned a print shop in the late 80s when "vegetable based printing inks" became suddenly "very green." Ink is made of pigment (carbon black for black ink) and oil. The heavy, greasy oil used in ink is a byproduct of oil refining. If it isn't used as printing ink it is mixed with lighter oils and burned as "bunker fuel." No oil is refined to create the heavy grease used in printing ink (it wouldn't be very economic). However the greens claimed that vegetable oil based printing ink was "better." So now the printing industry has almost completely converted to vegetable oil based inks, with an enormous economic cost of the conversion (new inks and other new press chemistry had to be developed, etc.). However, the primary source of volatile organic compounds (that form into smog) in printing doesn't come from the ink, but rather comes from the isopropyl alcohol used in the fountain solution and the solvents used to clean ink from presses. The printing industry was already moving toward reducing and eliminating those sources of VOCs when the soybean ink fad hit. Today, printers have significantly reduced the release of VOCs. Soy ink had nothing whatsoever to do with it. But, the farmers are happy. We all pay a little more for anything that has printing on it. We can all feel good about using "renewable" vegetable oil in our printing ink. And, I'm most certainly a skeptic about soy based fuel/oil products. Soybean oil is great for deep frying french fries, however. Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA "aeonix1@mac.com" On Jun 21, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote: Alright Pete, it has been 40 years since I did my college chemistry classes and I have not done a damn thing with it since. I have a question; don't mean to get into a chemistry class on the forum; just interested in something. If finished bio-diesel has a published average formula of C19H36O2 and average common diesel has a formula of C12H23 how is bio-diesel better for the air we breath? Does something happen in the combustion chamber?? Are the farmers stroking me?? CH4 is clean so to speak. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Royale Dahlonega, GA Smoke N Mirrors

[Steve Pfiffner]

Dan,

When I got the compressor from the factory many years ago it came laying
down (no oil)
in a custom wooden crate which I no longer have. It currently could possibly
be strapped
standing up (with oil) on a pallet but the risk of damage would be pretty
high, it really should
be picked up. But with its heavy roll around stand I would estimate shipping
weight at about
400lbs. if you really want to check out shipping to your location. Now one
could ask why I
would give away a perfectly good compressor that cost over $6k in the early
90's??????
Rix sold so few of these machines that they dropped parts service years ago
and it cannot
be rebuilt.

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Williams"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS
STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???


>I am interested in the gas compressor but how much is shipping to Jackson,
> MS?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Pfiffner
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:10 PM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS
> STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
>
>
>
> If you really want a natural gas compressor I just happen to have one you
> can have
> 2.5cfm 230v single phase complete with filtering for oil and water and
> high
> pressure manifolding.
> Worked fine the last time I ran it free fob Dallas
>
> http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/6gznkp> com/6gznkp
>
> Steve
> Wannabee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Leroy Eckert"
> com>
> To:
> yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS
> STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
>
> Most likely on my part. I have never placed a shrimp on the barbi with the
> Aussies. My supposition was Propane is readily available where CNG is not.
> So-----don't know. I know the gas they bring to my home is not free by any
> stretch and certainly is not any better money wise than Dino fuel. If you
> have a natural gas line at home you can fill up in the garage by
> installing
> a compressor. If I had natural gas I would probably look into it further.
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40 Royale
> Dahlonega, GA
> Smoke N Mirrors
>
> --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner > net> wrote:
> From: Steve Pfiffner net>
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT GAS
> STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
> To: WanderlodgeForum@
> yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:11 PM
>
> There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas)
> and LPG
>
> (evidently called Autogas in
>
> Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same thing.
>
> Steve
>
> Wannabee
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date: 6/20/2008
> 11:52 AM
>
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date: 6/20/2008
11:52 AM

[Jack & Donna Smith]

Out here in the Kingdom of Arnold, we have quite a few Transit
Busses and FedEx vehicles running on "Clean Burning Natural Gas" as
the placard on the vehicle tells us.
I had always envisioned a SCUBA type compressor in the garage to
fill your cars tank over night.
I do recall that quite a few years ago, the English Morgan car could
not meet the emissions code, so some dealer outfitted a number of
them with a Propane conversion.
Jack Smith
SoCal.


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Leroy Eckert
wrote:
>
> I don't have natural gas but I suspicion someone in CA does.
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40 Royale
> Dahlonega, GA
> Smoke N Mirrors
>
> --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner wrote:
> From: Steve Pfiffner
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT
GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 5:09 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If you really want a natural gas compressor I just
happen to have one you
>
> can have
>
> 2.5cfm 230v single phase complete with filtering for oil and
water and high
>
> pressure manifolding.
>
> Worked fine the last time I ran it free fob Dallas
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl. com/6gznkp
>
>
>
> Steve
>
> Wannabee
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Leroy Eckert"
>
> To:
>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:42 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT
GAS
>
> STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
>
>
>
> Most likely on my part. I have never placed a shrimp on the barbi
with the
>
> Aussies. My supposition was Propane is readily available where CNG
is not.
>
> So-----don't know. I know the gas they bring to my home is not
free by any
>
> stretch and certainly is not any better money wise than Dino fuel.
If you
>
> have a natural gas line at home you can fill up in the garage by
installing
>
> a compressor. If I had natural gas I would probably look into it
further.
>
>
>
> Leroy Eckert
>
> 1990 WB-40 Royale
>
> Dahlonega, GA
>
> Smoke N Mirrors
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner wrote:
>
> From: Steve Pfiffner
>
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT
GAS
>
> STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
>
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>
> Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:11 PM
>
>
>
> There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas)
>
> and LPG
>
>
>
> (evidently called Autogas in
>
>
>
> Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same
thing.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> Wannabee
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
> Checked by AVG.
>
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date:
6/20/2008
>
> 11:52 AM
>

[Stephen Birtles]

for natural gas compressor
http://www.myphill.com/

Stephen 77fc35


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jack & Donna Smith"
wrote:
>
> Out here in the Kingdom of Arnold, we have quite a few Transit
> Busses and FedEx vehicles running on "Clean Burning Natural Gas" as
> the placard on the vehicle tells us.
> I had always envisioned a SCUBA type compressor in the garage to
> fill your cars tank over night.
> I do recall that quite a few years ago, the English Morgan car could
> not meet the emissions code, so some dealer outfitted a number of
> them with a Propane conversion.
> Jack Smith
> SoCal.
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Leroy Eckert
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't have natural gas but I suspicion someone in CA does.
> > Leroy Eckert
> > 1990 WB-40 Royale
> > Dahlonega, GA
> > Smoke N Mirrors
> >
> > --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner wrote:
> > From: Steve Pfiffner
> > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT
> GAS STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 5:09 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If you really want a natural gas compressor I just
> happen to have one you
> >
> > can have
> >
> > 2.5cfm 230v single phase complete with filtering for oil and
> water and high
> >
> > pressure manifolding.
> >
> > Worked fine the last time I ran it free fob Dallas
> >
> >
> >
> > http://tinyurl. com/6gznkp
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > Wannabee
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Leroy Eckert"
> >
> > To:
> >
> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:42 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT
> GAS
> >
> > STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
> >
> >
> >
> > Most likely on my part. I have never placed a shrimp on the barbi
> with the
> >
> > Aussies. My supposition was Propane is readily available where CNG
> is not.
> >
> > So-----don't know. I know the gas they bring to my home is not
> free by any
> >
> > stretch and certainly is not any better money wise than Dino fuel.
> If you
> >
> > have a natural gas line at home you can fill up in the garage by
> installing
> >
> > a compressor. If I had natural gas I would probably look into it
> further.
> >
> >
> >
> > Leroy Eckert
> >
> > 1990 WB-40 Royale
> >
> > Dahlonega, GA
> >
> > Smoke N Mirrors
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Steve Pfiffner wrote:
> >
> > From: Steve Pfiffner
> >
> > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: WHY DON'T WE HAVE AUTO GAS AT
> GAS
> >
> > STATIONS HERE LIKE THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA???
> >
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:11 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > There seems to be some confusion, CNG (compressed natural gas)
> >
> > and LPG
> >
> >
> >
> > (evidently called Autogas in
> >
> >
> >
> > Australia and butane/propane in the US) are not really the same
> thing.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > Wannabee
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >
> > Checked by AVG.
> >
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date:
> 6/20/2008
> >
> > 11:52 AM
> >
>

[birdshill123]

Propane is not a suitable fuel for automobiles. At least not in Canada
or the USA. Years ago Cnada got into this propne conversion thing in a
big way. Cash incentives to switch over as well as tax breaks. WE
converted 3 one ton delivery trucks and my MH. Never again. The MH
fried the heads in my 440. The delivery trucks got horrible fuel
mileage. In 6 years the tanks were so rusty they had to be replaced. In
the winter they were hard to start. Not many shops were versed in the
technology. Try buying propane after dark in N.D. To make it even worse
propane is just as expensive as road fuel. Every taxi in Western Canada
ran on propane. I dont think any use this fuel today.

Bruce
1988FC35

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

GOOD MORNING ALL!!! WOW!! It is fun starting a new
subject..sure gets the "experts" out! Gee BRUCE, I have been
running my Toyota Corrolla on Australian "autogas for eight(8) years
and my Mitsubishi Campervan on Australian "autogas" for two (2) years
and now I find out that it is NOT "suitable."

Let's see..I pay 62 cents a litre for "autogas" and $1.73 per litre
for petrol(American gasoline) and miles per gallon differences
between "autogas" and petrol and power difference are nearly
negligible to me and over a million Australians utilizing "autogas."

As gasoline goes higher, perhaps WE Americans should start
considering asking the BIG guys about we little guys saving MONEY by
switching to "autogas." Concerning "INSTALLATION" cost...I have not
heard the BANKS complain about putting ATM's everywhere.The American
way is just to pass the costs to us divided by 200 million.

I subscribe to the TEN ways WE CAN do something instead of TEN
reasons why WE can't do something.
NO offense intended. LOL. You all keep them cards and letters
commin!
Hank
90SP36





--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "birdshill123"
wrote:
>
> Propane is not a suitable fuel for automobiles. At least not in
Canada
> or the USA. Years ago Cnada got into this propne conversion thing
in a
> big way. Cash incentives to switch over as well as tax breaks. WE
> converted 3 one ton delivery trucks and my MH. Never again. The MH
> fried the heads in my 440. The delivery trucks got horrible fuel
> mileage. In 6 years the tanks were so rusty they had to be
replaced. In
> the winter they were hard to start. Not many shops were versed in
the
> technology. Try buying propane after dark in N.D. To make it even
worse
> propane is just as expensive as road fuel. Every taxi in Western
Canada
> ran on propane. I dont think any use this fuel today.
>
> Bruce
> 1988FC35
>

[Pete Masterson]

Hank, 

I don't know why "autogas" (propane?) is so relatively cheap in Australia. 

In the U.S., domestic heating oil (essentially diesel) is currently at an average price of $3.71/gal and propane (sold as domestic heating fuel) is currently at an average price of $2.66/gal here.

That makes propane about 30% less expensive per gallon than heating oil when sold in bulk for home use. I'm comparing the heating fuel prices because propane is not generally sold as a vehicle fuel here. These prices therefore compare with a similar level of taxation. I note that diesel road fuel is about $1.30 per gallon higher than heating oil and that would be a fair reflection of the typical vehicle fuel tax load including Federal, state, and local taxes.

For what it's worth, you're quoting "autogas" at about 65% less expensive than petrol per unit of measure. That is a pretty significant savings and covers the lower miles per gallon (kilometers per liter) you get with propane. 

Propane has about 92,000 Btu/gal while gasoline has about 124,000 btu/gal. So, your rate of use for the same amount of work is about 25% higher with propane.

So, adjusting for the difference between the costs and efficiencies, propane is only about 5% cheaper based on U.S. prices. This is a "savings" that would quickly disappear once the increased demand pushed up the cost of propane. 

For what ever reason, there is a substantial cost differential in Australia that does not carry over to the U.S. 

Another writer addressed the operating issues that occur in colder climates -- something that Australia, to my knowledge, does not have in a significant measure. During and earlier "gas crisis" many vehicles in corporate and government fleets were converted to use propane or compressed natural gas. In large part, those vehicles have not been replaced with similar technology when they were worn out. This would tend to suggest that, under the conditions of the various vehicle fleets, that the change was not economically advantageous. Corporate vehicle fleets are usually closely monitored for the economics of their operation, and if experimental operations prove effective at lowering costs or increasing efficiency, they will be implemented.

I note that there is some experimentation with converting transit busses to gasoline-electric hybrid operation like the Toyota Prius. The new owners of BB Coachworks are one of the vendors making such conversions.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 22, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:

<snip>

Let's see..I pay 62 cents a litre for "autogas" and $1.73 per litre 

for petrol(American gasoline) and miles per gallon differences 

between "autogas" and petrol and power difference are nearly 

negligible to me and over a million Australians utilizing "autogas."

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

Pete:
With your expert comments, it is probably time to close off this
subject matter....what do you recommend Ernie?

I will just continue being satisfied driving my corolla and
Mitsubishi on "autogas" and we will all live "happily everafter...now
that Naty & are are "happily" married like the rest of you. Just
kidding..
I am already entered in the "SENIORS TOURNEY" at the WSOP on Monday
here. Should be 3000 entries...sure hope I get LUCKY!
I have enjoyed discussing "autogas." I apologize if I offended
anyone.
LOL
Hank
90SP36 in Vegas






--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> Hank,
>
> I don't know why "autogas" (propane?) is so relatively cheap in
> Australia.
>
> In the U.S., domestic heating oil (essentially diesel) is
currently
> at an average price of $3.71/gal and propane (sold as domestic
> heating fuel) is currently at an average price of $2.66/gal here.
>
> That makes propane about 30% less expensive per gallon than
heating
> oil when sold in bulk for home use. I'm comparing the heating fuel
> prices because propane is not generally sold as a vehicle fuel
here.
> These prices therefore compare with a similar level of taxation. I
> note that diesel road fuel is about $1.30 per gallon higher than
> heating oil and that would be a fair reflection of the typical
> vehicle fuel tax load including Federal, state, and local taxes.
>
> For what it's worth, you're quoting "autogas" at about 65% less
> expensive than petrol per unit of measure. That is a pretty
> significant savings and covers the lower miles per gallon
(kilometers
> per liter) you get with propane.
>
> Propane has about 92,000 Btu/gal while gasoline has about 124,000
btu/
> gal. So, your rate of use for the same amount of work is about 25%
> higher with propane.
>
> So, adjusting for the difference between the costs and
efficiencies,
> propane is only about 5% cheaper based on U.S. prices. This is a
> "savings" that would quickly disappear once the increased demand
> pushed up the cost of propane.
>
> For what ever reason, there is a substantial cost differential in
> Australia that does not carry over to the U.S.
>
> Another writer addressed the operating issues that occur in colder
> climates -- something that Australia, to my knowledge, does not
have
> in a significant measure. During and earlier "gas crisis" many
> vehicles in corporate and government fleets were converted to use
> propane or compressed natural gas. In large part, those vehicles
have
> not been replaced with similar technology when they were worn out.
> This would tend to suggest that, under the conditions of the
various
> vehicle fleets, that the change was not economically advantageous.
> Corporate vehicle fleets are usually closely monitored for the
> economics of their operation, and if experimental operations prove
> effective at lowering costs or increasing efficiency, they will be
> implemented.
>
> I note that there is some experimentation with converting transit
> busses to gasoline-electric hybrid operation like the Toyota
Prius.
> The new owners of BB Coachworks are one of the vendors making such
> conversions.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:
> > <snip>
> > Let's see..I pay 62 cents a litre for "autogas" and $1.73 per
litre
> > for petrol(American gasoline) and miles per gallon differences
> > between "autogas" and petrol and power difference are nearly
> > negligible to me and over a million Australians
utilizing "autogas."
> >
>

[Don Bradner]

Hank, you have blinders on based on your Australian experience. Even where LPG
is abundant, as it is in Australia, it is not inherently much cheaper than other
petrol forms. It is only priced the way you see it because of government
subsidy. Until 2011, Australian Autogas remains Excise tax-free, and the tax
will only be A12.5 cents phased in over 5 years from 2011. Petrol has an excise
tax over A38 cents. Subsidies/rebates from the government on the purchase of
Autogas vehicles is another part of the equation.

Look at the Flying J pages to get a sense of the price comparison of Gas vs
Propane in the US: http://www.flyingj.com/fuel/gasoline_CF.cfm?state=US

Autogas is not pure propane, but rather a propane/butane mixture, but the
pricing is comparable. If any significant percentage of America's cars were
converted to autogas, the resultant demand on LPG against supplies would rapidly
cause a price displacement that would offset any advantage. Of course that
assumes they don't just shift the burden to the taxpayer.

When you look at articles on Autogas around the world, suggestions that
countries proceed as Australia has always talk about smaller countries,
primarily European, and you never see ANY that suggest it would be a wise or
economical move for the US.

Incidentally, as far as I can tell it appears that, with the .62/1.73 numbers,
you have chosen to list the cheapest Autogas price you can find against the
highest petrol price. Perhaps those were at the same location, perhaps not, but
the difference appears greater than most general Australian price numbers. See,
for example, http://www.fuelwatch.wa.gov.au/index.cfm...date=Today

On 6/22/2008 at 4:34 PM Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:

>GOOD MORNING ALL!!! WOW!! It is fun starting a new
>subject..sure gets the "experts" out! Gee BRUCE, I have been
>running my Toyota Corrolla on Australian "autogas for eight(8) years
>and my Mitsubishi Campervan on Australian "autogas" for two (2) years
>and now I find out that it is NOT "suitable."
>
>Let's see..I pay 62 cents a litre for "autogas" and $1.73 per litre
>for petrol(American gasoline) and miles per gallon differences
>between "autogas" and petrol and power difference are nearly
>negligible to me and over a million Australians utilizing "autogas."
>
>As gasoline goes higher, perhaps WE Americans should start
>considering asking the BIG guys about we little guys saving MONEY by
>switching to "autogas." Concerning "INSTALLATION" cost...I have not
>heard the BANKS complain about putting ATM's everywhere.The American
>way is just to pass the costs to us divided by 200 million.
>
>I subscribe to the TEN ways WE CAN do something instead of TEN
>reasons why WE can't do something.
> NO offense intended. LOL. You all keep them cards and letters
>commin!
>Hank
>90SP36
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "birdshill123"
> wrote:
>>
>> Propane is not a suitable fuel for automobiles. At least not in
>Canada
>> or the USA. Years ago Cnada got into this propne conversion thing
>in a
>> big way. Cash incentives to switch over as well as tax breaks. WE
>> converted 3 one ton delivery trucks and my MH. Never again. The MH
>> fried the heads in my 440. The delivery trucks got horrible fuel
>> mileage. In 6 years the tanks were so rusty they had to be
>replaced. In
>> the winter they were hard to start. Not many shops were versed in
>the
>> technology. Try buying propane after dark in N.D. To make it even
>worse
>> propane is just as expensive as road fuel. Every taxi in Western
>Canada
>> ran on propane. I dont think any use this fuel today.
>>
>> Bruce
>> 1988FC35
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

DON:
Excellent comments!
Before I go into depression about even opening this subject matter,
let me make one more comment.
From your excellent discovery, it appears that LPG is approximately
ONE DOLLAR PER GALLON HIGHER IN THE USA THAN IN AUSTRALIA and it
appears that TAXES covers that difference.
Taxes are in the domain of WASHINGTON, so I better leave it there
without commenting further. Thank you all for your comments. I am
reordering my ZOLOFT and PROZAC Monday.
Regards,
Hank
90SP36




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> Hank, you have blinders on based on your Australian experience.
Even where LPG is abundant, as it is in Australia, it is not
inherently much cheaper than other petrol forms. It is only priced
the way you see it because of government subsidy. Until 2011,
Australian Autogas remains Excise tax-free, and the tax will only be
A12.5 cents phased in over 5 years from 2011. Petrol has an excise
tax over A38 cents. Subsidies/rebates from the government on the
purchase of Autogas vehicles is another part of the equation.
>
> Look at the Flying J pages to get a sense of the price comparison
of Gas vs Propane in the US:
http://www.flyingj.com/fuel/gasoline_CF.cfm?state=US
>
> Autogas is not pure propane, but rather a propane/butane mixture,
but the pricing is comparable. If any significant percentage of
America's cars were converted to autogas, the resultant demand on LPG
against supplies would rapidly cause a price displacement that would
offset any advantage. Of course that assumes they don't just shift
the burden to the taxpayer.
>
> When you look at articles on Autogas around the world, suggestions
that countries proceed as Australia has always talk about smaller
countries, primarily European, and you never see ANY that suggest it
would be a wise or economical move for the US.
>
> Incidentally, as far as I can tell it appears that, with
the .62/1.73 numbers, you have chosen to list the cheapest Autogas
price you can find against the highest petrol price. Perhaps those
were at the same location, perhaps not, but the difference appears
greater than most general Australian price numbers. See, for example,
http://www.fuelwatch.wa.gov.au/index.cfm...date=Today
>
> On 6/22/2008 at 4:34 PM Henry Jay Hannigan wrote:
>
> >GOOD MORNING ALL!!! WOW!! It is fun starting a new
> >subject..sure gets the "experts" out! Gee BRUCE, I have been
> >running my Toyota Corrolla on Australian "autogas for eight(8)
years
> >and my Mitsubishi Campervan on Australian "autogas" for two (2)
years
> >and now I find out that it is NOT "suitable."
> >
> >Let's see..I pay 62 cents a litre for "autogas" and $1.73 per
litre
> >for petrol(American gasoline) and miles per gallon differences
> >between "autogas" and petrol and power difference are nearly
> >negligible to me and over a million Australians
utilizing "autogas."
> >
> >As gasoline goes higher, perhaps WE Americans should start
> >considering asking the BIG guys about we little guys saving MONEY
by
> >switching to "autogas." Concerning "INSTALLATION" cost...I have
not
> >heard the BANKS complain about putting ATM's everywhere.The
American
> >way is just to pass the costs to us divided by 200 million.
> >
> >I subscribe to the TEN ways WE CAN do something instead of TEN
> >reasons why WE can't do something.
> > NO offense intended. LOL. You all keep them cards and letters
> >commin!
> >Hank
> >90SP36
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "birdshill123"
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Propane is not a suitable fuel for automobiles. At least not in
> >Canada
> >> or the USA. Years ago Cnada got into this propne conversion
thing
> >in a
> >> big way. Cash incentives to switch over as well as tax breaks.
WE
> >> converted 3 one ton delivery trucks and my MH. Never again. The
MH
> >> fried the heads in my 440. The delivery trucks got horrible fuel
> >> mileage. In 6 years the tanks were so rusty they had to be
> >replaced. In
> >> the winter they were hard to start. Not many shops were versed
in
> >the
> >> technology. Try buying propane after dark in N.D. To make it
even
> >worse
> >> propane is just as expensive as road fuel. Every taxi in Western
> >Canada
> >> ran on propane. I dont think any use this fuel today.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> 1988FC35
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>