Low volts and amps; was alternator

[Sidney Breese]

Some of you may remember my alternator belts broke. I just put the
belts on my alternator and took Max for a spin. It registered about
100 amps and 11.5 volts. The amp meter went to 0 and the voltage 10.
I turned on the generator and got close to normal for a couple of
miles and then it did the same thing. I checked the alternator and it
showed 11.5 volts. That may have been feedback from the batteries.
I'm ready to buy a new alternator, but with the generator not
supplying power to the chargers, think it might be something else.
When I hooked up to shore power I got over 110 amps and 12.5 volts at
the dash. Any suggestions? I need to get this solved as we are
heading the California in a week!

Sid Breese
85PT40
St. Joseph, MO

[mrdonut12]

Sid,
I've been having a similar problem with low charge
rate. This weekend I took the ground connections loose from
alternator and cleaned them. I cleaned the ground connections
from the batteries to the frame and installed a new bolt.
Clean every ground you can find.
When I say clean them, use sandpaper to get the metal
shiny around the connection to the chassis. Remove all rust and
paint. Use a wire brush on the electrical connectors themselves.
Being copper, they'll clean up easier.
After I did that, it signicantly increased my rate and
voltage. Bad grounds are the cause of more electrical
problems on vehicles than anything else.
I hope this helps.

George Witt
81 FC 35
Lincoln, Nebraska--Huskers


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney Breese"
<ssbreese@a...> wrote:
> Some of you may remember my alternator belts broke. I just put the
> belts on my alternator and took Max for a spin. It registered about
> 100 amps and 11.5 volts. The amp meter went to 0 and the voltage 10.
> I turned on the generator and got close to normal for a couple of
> miles and then it did the same thing. I checked the alternator and it
> showed 11.5 volts. That may have been feedback from the batteries.
> I'm ready to buy a new alternator, but with the generator not
> supplying power to the chargers, think it might be something else.
> When I hooked up to shore power I got over 110 amps and 12.5 volts at
> the dash. Any suggestions? I need to get this solved as we are
> heading the California in a week!
>
> Sid Breese
> 85PT40
> St. Joseph, MO

[Jeff Miller]

Not a lot of information to go on, could take some testing to find if
the gauges are correct, if there is a short, etc.

If it is charging when plugged into shore power, it should charge the
same when on generator power (same chargers are used).

It should settle down after a while to a low charge rate (current), and
around 13v. If the current and voltage stay 110a/11.5v for an extended
period, it sounds like you have a substantial short somewhere, there
should be smoke.

Once the current/voltage settle down on shore power, try starting the
engine and run up to ~1200rpm, check the gauges again. turn off shore
power and see if the voltage/current stays as it should.

I don't have an '84-1/2 up PT chassis wiring diagram with me, but if it
is the same as the '84-'86 FC then don't expect the dash voltmeter to
be even close with the key on. Check voltages at the batteries with a
voltmeter.


- Jeff Miller
http://www.wanderlodge.net
http://www.millercoachworks.com



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney Breese"
<ssbreese@a...> wrote:
> Some of you may remember my alternator belts broke. I just put the
> belts on my alternator and took Max for a spin. It registered about
> 100 amps and 11.5 volts. The amp meter went to 0 and the voltage 10.
> I turned on the generator and got close to normal for a couple of
> miles and then it did the same thing. I checked the alternator and it
> showed 11.5 volts. That may have been feedback from the batteries.
> I'm ready to buy a new alternator, but with the generator not
> supplying power to the chargers, think it might be something else.
> When I hooked up to shore power I got over 110 amps and 12.5 volts at
> the dash. Any suggestions? I need to get this solved as we are
> heading the California in a week!
>
> Sid Breese
> 85PT40
> St. Joseph, MO

[Scott]

Hey Sid, I just went through the alternator thing last week on our 86FC
and all I can say is WOW... It turns out that my dash guages were off
by 1 volt and we checked everything at the batteries..and the back of
the alternator..and still had a substantial amperage draw..FINALLY
figured out that the REDILINE WAS DRAWING APPX 90 AMPS when
running..also make sure to check when batteries are charged otherwise
the alternator is trying to charge back the batteries pushing alot of
amperage. I replaced the alternator with a BOSCH unit 160amp special
purpose designed to charge at lower rpms (new design used on tranist
buses) I guess we will see..got a 1 yr warranty..
Scott
86FC35
Murrells Inlet Sc
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney Breese"
<ssbreese@a...> wrote:
> Some of you may remember my alternator belts broke. I just put the
> belts on my alternator and took Max for a spin. It registered about
> 100 amps and 11.5 volts. The amp meter went to 0 and the voltage 10.
> I turned on the generator and got close to normal for a couple of
> miles and then it did the same thing. I checked the alternator and it
> showed 11.5 volts. That may have been feedback from the batteries.
> I'm ready to buy a new alternator, but with the generator not
> supplying power to the chargers, think it might be something else.
> When I hooked up to shore power I got over 110 amps and 12.5 volts at
> the dash. Any suggestions? I need to get this solved as we are
> heading the California in a week!
>
> Sid Breese
> 85PT40
> St. Joseph, MO

[Tom Warner]

FC models are saddled with two engineering design problems. The first is
that to much current is running thru the dash and the second is the very
long cables between the chargers, the alternator and the batteries. The
more current you can divert from the dash, such as using Bosch relays for
the lights, relays to get the A/C current(driver and passenger sides) out
of the dash, etc. Change the battery cables to 4/0 although not the best
fix nor the optimal condition, it does seem easier then to change the
chargers to the passenger front bin. One more problem is that the FC models
were designed to use the motorola alternator and an external regulator that
senses the voltage directly across the batteries. Most people have changed
that out to the Leece_Neville with the internal regulators which cause a
problem.

Tom
1982 FC35
Vernon Center,NY

At 12:52 AM 5/24/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>Hey Sid, I just went through the alternator thing last week on our 86FC
>and all I can say is WOW... It turns out that my dash guages were off
>by 1 volt and we checked everything at the batteries..and the back of
>the alternator..and still had a substantial amperage draw..FINALLY
>figured out that the REDILINE WAS DRAWING APPX 90 AMPS when
>running..also make sure to check when batteries are charged otherwise
>the alternator is trying to charge back the batteries pushing alot of
>amperage. I replaced the alternator with a BOSCH unit 160amp special
>purpose designed to charge at lower rpms (new design used on tranist
>buses) I guess we will see..got a 1 yr warranty..
>Scott
>86FC35
>Murrells Inlet Sc
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney Breese"
><ssbreese@a...> wrote:
> > Some of you may remember my alternator belts broke. I just put the
> > belts on my alternator and took Max for a spin. It registered about
> > 100 amps and 11.5 volts. The amp meter went to 0 and the voltage 10.
> > I turned on the generator and got close to normal for a couple of
> > miles and then it did the same thing. I checked the alternator and it
> > showed 11.5 volts. That may have been feedback from the batteries.
> > I'm ready to buy a new alternator, but with the generator not
> > supplying power to the chargers, think it might be something else.
> > When I hooked up to shore power I got over 110 amps and 12.5 volts at
> > the dash. Any suggestions? I need to get this solved as we are
> > heading the California in a week!
> >
> > Sid Breese
> > 85PT40
> > St. Joseph, MO

[George Lowry]

I had some similar indications when we first got the coach. Traced it
to bad cells in the Interstate batteries, which were new. Replaced
with Deka AGM's and it has worked perfectly ever since. Might want to
run a specific gravity check of your batteries to make certain you
don't have a bad cell.

George Lowry
'95 WBDA 4203 & GM 4106 (for sale)
Spearfish, SD

Jeff Miller wrote:

> Not a lot of information to go on, could take some testing to find if
> the gauges are correct, if there is a short, etc.
>
> If it is charging when plugged into shore power, it should charge the
> same when on generator power (same chargers are used).
>
> It should settle down after a while to a low charge rate (current), and
> around 13v. If the current and voltage stay 110a/11.5v for an extended
> period, it sounds like you have a substantial short somewhere, there
> should be smoke.
>
> Once the current/voltage settle down on shore power, try starting the
> engine and run up to ~1200rpm, check the gauges again. turn off shore
> power and see if the voltage/current stays as it should.
>
> I don't have an '84-1/2 up PT chassis wiring diagram with me, but if it
> is the same as the '84-'86 FC then don't expect the dash voltmeter to
> be even close with the key on. Check voltages at the batteries with a
> voltmeter.
>
>
> - Jeff Miller
> http://www.wanderlodge.net
> http://www.millercoachworks.com
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney Breese"
> <ssbreese@a...> wrote:
>
>>Some of you may remember my alternator belts broke. I just put the
>>belts on my alternator and took Max for a spin. It registered about
>>100 amps and 11.5 volts. The amp meter went to 0 and the voltage 10.
>> I turned on the generator and got close to normal for a couple of
>>miles and then it did the same thing. I checked the alternator and it
>>showed 11.5 volts. That may have been feedback from the batteries.
>>I'm ready to buy a new alternator, but with the generator not
>>supplying power to the chargers, think it might be something else.
>>When I hooked up to shore power I got over 110 amps and 12.5 volts at
>>the dash. Any suggestions? I need to get this solved as we are
>>heading the California in a week!
>>
>>Sid Breese
>>85PT40
>>St. Joseph, MO
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Jeff Miller]

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?

Granted the dash in your early '82 FC could have benefitted from the
addition of a few load-reduction relays: headlamps, ignition, A/C
switches for example. Fortunately BlueBird figured that out many
years ago also and made production changes.

Your alternator and wiring also ended in late '82, all of the 3208Ta
engines had the Leece-Neville alternator with internal regulator as
original equipment. The external voltage sense was retained, through
at least the late '90s S-60 powered WLWB coaches, and was intended to
maintain proper voltage at the power buss regardless of voltage drop
over the wiring run. Many alternator folks don't understand this
wiring and I usually see it mis-wired by now.

Although the charger wiring is long, 1AWG is probably considered
adequate for the original 90a peak charging current over perhaps 25'.
Some of the battery wiring was upsized in mid-CY-1982 with the
addition of the battery isolator next to the slide-out battery tray.

I'm not sure that 4/0 battery cables for the 18" from battery to
junction would be practical (or necessary). Perhaps a jump to 1/0
would be more manageable? Trying to use the slide-out battery tray
with 4/0 wires would be difficult and other than starting current
there isn't anything that normally will cause significant voltage
drop in that wiring.

- Jeff Miller


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
> FC models are saddled with two engineering design problems. The
first is
> that to much current is running thru the dash and the second is the
very
> long cables between the chargers, the alternator and the batteries.
The
> more current you can divert from the dash, such as using Bosch
relays for
> the lights, relays to get the A/C current(driver and passenger
sides) out
> of the dash, etc. Change the battery cables to 4/0 although not the
best
> fix nor the optimal condition, it does seem easier then to change
the
> chargers to the passenger front bin. One more problem is that the
FC models
> were designed to use the motorola alternator and an external
regulator that
> senses the voltage directly across the batteries. Most people have
changed
> that out to the Leece_Neville with the internal regulators which
cause a
> problem.
>
> Tom
> 1982 FC35
> Vernon Center,NY

[bobloomas]

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 9:14 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Low volts and amps; was alternator

I know on the 85 PT they were still useing to small of cable from the batt. (
1.0 ) to the starter useing it as a junction still 1.0 cable to the house cable
witch is 4.0 cable talk about a voltage drop. I did change out the 1.0 cable
from my batt.to the main house wireing to 4.0 cable it does make a differnce in
less volage drop Also on mine 85 PT B/B still were not useing relays in the head
lights and to small of wire.After i up greaded to relays for the head lights and
rewired the the dash lights to 10 gage wireing I can see the road at nite with
out the use of driving lights and the gages with out the use of a flash
light.The upgrad wireing was a inprovment to me and worth the time and money.
Old birds were not built for dry camping very little batt. capacities. Birds
were more suited to run the generator or go from poll to poll so who cared about
voltage drop other then the fluorescent lighting with the black tube ends do to
low voltage
In my opinon the great thing about B/B is the over all heavy construction it
gives a person something to work with and spend your money and time on. Plus you
can reengineer it any way you choose to.
Bob Loomas 85 PT 36

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[freewill2008]

Jeff - How did BB accomplish the 'external voltage sense' with L-N
alternator? Is the external sensing point the place to put the
voltmeter when adjusting the L-N regulator?

Also, a general comment: When an electrical problem seems to be due
to the length or size of a cable, remember to check the
terminations. Crimped-on lugs do NOT get better at conducting
current with age. Same is true where a lug fastens to a terminal.
If in doubt, install new lugs and clean all contact points until the
metal is shiny. Then apply a product like Rid-Ox before assembly.
Remember that each cable end is actually TWO connections: One from
cable to lug, and another from lug to terminal. That's FOUR points of
failure for each run of cable (True of ground straps also).

Bob Griesel

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Miller"
wrote:
> Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
>
> Granted the dash in your early '82 FC could have benefitted from
the
> addition of a few load-reduction relays: headlamps, ignition, A/C
> switches for example. Fortunately BlueBird figured that out many
> years ago also and made production changes.
>
> Your alternator and wiring also ended in late '82, all of the
3208Ta
> engines had the Leece-Neville alternator with internal regulator as
> original equipment. The external voltage sense was retained,
through
> at least the late '90s S-60 powered WLWB coaches, and was intended
to
> maintain proper voltage at the power buss regardless of voltage
drop
> over the wiring run. Many alternator folks don't understand this
> wiring and I usually see it mis-wired by now.
>
> Although the charger wiring is long, 1AWG is probably considered
> adequate for the original 90a peak charging current over perhaps
25'.
> Some of the battery wiring was upsized in mid-CY-1982 with the
> addition of the battery isolator next to the slide-out battery tray.
>
> I'm not sure that 4/0 battery cables for the 18" from battery to
> junction would be practical (or necessary). Perhaps a jump to 1/0
> would be more manageable? Trying to use the slide-out battery tray
> with 4/0 wires would be difficult and other than starting current
> there isn't anything that normally will cause significant voltage
> drop in that wiring.
>
> - Jeff Miller
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
> wrote:
> > FC models are saddled with two engineering design problems.
The
> first is
> > that to much current is running thru the dash and the second is
the
> very
> > long cables between the chargers, the alternator and the
batteries.
> The
> > more current you can divert from the dash, such as using Bosch
> relays for
> > the lights, relays to get the A/C current(driver and passenger
> sides) out
> > of the dash, etc. Change the battery cables to 4/0 although not
the
> best
> > fix nor the optimal condition, it does seem easier then to change
> the
> > chargers to the passenger front bin. One more problem is that the
> FC models
> > were designed to use the motorola alternator and an external
> regulator that
> > senses the voltage directly across the batteries. Most people
have
> changed
> > that out to the Leece_Neville with the internal regulators which
> cause a
> > problem.
> >
> > Tom
> > 1982 FC35
> > Vernon Center,NY

[Jeff Miller]

The alternator is shipped with two straps connecting the voltage
regulator to the positive and negative posts on the alternator.

BlueBird removed (or ordered with it removed) the strap from the
positive to the voltage regulator, and connected the voltage regulator
to the coach electrical system instead.

- Jeff Miller
http://www.wanderlodge.net
http://www.millercoachworks.com


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "freewill2008"
wrote:
> Jeff - How did BB accomplish the 'external voltage sense' with L-N
> alternator? Is the external sensing point the place to put the
> voltmeter when adjusting the L-N regulator?
>
> Also, a general comment: When an electrical problem seems to be due
> to the length or size of a cable, remember to check the
> terminations. Crimped-on lugs do NOT get better at conducting
> current with age. Same is true where a lug fastens to a terminal.
> If in doubt, install new lugs and clean all contact points until the
> metal is shiny. Then apply a product like Rid-Ox before assembly.
> Remember that each cable end is actually TWO connections: One from
> cable to lug, and another from lug to terminal. That's FOUR points of
> failure for each run of cable (True of ground straps also).
>
> Bob Griesel