electrical problems
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08-29-2008, 15:34
Post: #21
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electrical problems
45 Dummies, did you see the jackstands #45 put under the bus?
GregoryO'Connor 94ptRomolandCa --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson > > That was one expensive test. New Setra ($600K??) and 44 test dummies. > Wonder how fast it was traveling when it hit the wall -- there was a > lot of front end damage. Sure lets you know why they have alternate > escape hatches! > > Pete Masterson > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 > aeonix1@... > On the road at Idaho Springs, CO > > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Kurt Horvath wrote: > > > > > Mike, > > It worked this time. > > Notice the millisecond timer in the top left corner on the interior > > portion of the video, S--T happens fast. The second you don't respect > > one of these machines is when they let you know who's boss. > > Kurt Horvath > > 95 PT-42 > > 10Ac > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Horvath" > > > >> > >> I see that Mike, here's the address again , You might havr to copy > >> and paste in address bar??? > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrZr-QZbfxo > >> Kurt Horvath > >> 95 PT-42 > >> 10Ac > >> > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mbulriss" <mbulriss@> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Kurt, > >>> > >>> That link as posted does not work. YouTube says "the video you > >>> requested is not available". > >>> > >>> FWIW, > >>> > >>> Mike Bulriss > >>> 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan" > >>> San Antonio, TX - not a real good weekend to go to the coast! > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Horvath" > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> John, > >>>> > >>>> Your so right, "The thing can crush you, electrocute you, you > > can > >>>> fall off, and then there is the road risk. I guess we can say > > it > >> can > >>>> get you coming and going as well as a couple ways in between." > >>>> > >>>> Speaking of road risk here's a vivid reminder of what can > > happen. > >>>> > >>>> Bus Crash Tes.tEver wonder what a bus crash looks like, check > >> this > >>>> out. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrZr-Qzbfxo > >>>> > >>>> Kurt Horvath > >>>> 95 PT-42 > >>>> 10AC > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64" > > > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> The 30 amp cord is pretty much a standard 110 with a funny > > plug > >> on > >>>> it > >>>>> then? I knew that 220 was essentially two 110 hot wires but > >> did > >>>> not > >>>>> know that the 50 was similar. Having been in a RV store not > >> long > >>>> ago > >>>>> I noticed they had a featured item up near the check out a 50 > >> amp > >>>>> plug with a distinct pull handle on it. I think they also had > >> 30amp > >>>>> plugs similar. Didn't impress me at the time nearly as much > > as > >> it > >>>>> does now. I don't have 50 amps into my coach but I learned > >>>>> something. I also did not realize the risk involved in the > >> battery > >>>>> campartments. I was informed last year at the Maxton rally > >> about > >>>>> that. I guess the low voltage stuff can be rather nasty as > >> well. > >>>>> Perhaps some one will review and explain what the risk with > > the > >> low > >>>>> voltage. Does make a rather nasty spark if you short the > >> positive > >>>>> against the metal I know that. All kinds of ways a fellow > > can > >> get > >>>>> hurt. I was up on the roof of my bird this morning and I was > >> VERY > >>>>> careful. I remember seeing Don's X rays. I don't much like > > it > >> up > >>>>> there but once a year I go up to check it over and see that > > all > >> is > >>>>> well. Lets see. The thing can crush you, electrocute you, > > you > >> can > >>>>> fall off, and then there is the road risk. I guess we can > > say > >> it > >>>> can > >>>>> get you coming and going as well as a couple ways in > > between. > >>>>> > >>>>> John Heckman > >>>>> central Pa > >>>>> 1973 FC > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I may not have been clear: It was the coach end of the > > shore > >>>> cord, > >>>>> not the connector that is part of the coach. The pole end is > > a > >>>> molded > >>>>> connector, but the coach end is not; don't know if that is > >> original? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is a plastic ring cinched down to the cord, just > > behind > >> the > >>>>> connector. I never gave it much thought, but now I wonder why > >> that > >>>> is > >>>>> there. It lends itself to be the point that is grabbed to > > pull > >> the > >>>>> connector out, but that puts strain on the wires in the > >> connector. > >>>>> Clearly I should grab the connector body to pull it out, not > >> the > >>>>> wires. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 8/28/2008 at 8:31 PM Curt Sprenger wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Don, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Great Post...Everyone...All of us with our older coaches > >> need to > >>>>> do what > >>>>>>> Don > >>>>>>> just did, check our coach connectors. I'll add that we > >> should > >>>> also > >>>>> check > >>>>>>> our > >>>>>>> shore cord coach ends. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> .On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 5:34 PM, Don Bradner > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I've experienced two serious electrical problems on > > our > >>>>> current trip. > >>>>>>>> I'm hoping the second problem (solved) was the cause of > >> the > >>>>> first, but I > >>>>>>>> can't get my head around exactly how it would be, so I'm > >>>> hoping > >>>>> someone > >>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> more RV electrical experience than I have will have a > >> clue. I > >>>>> will rest > >>>>>>>> easier if I know what caused the first problem. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The first problem I talked about here earlier, but will > >> run > >>>>> through for > >>>>>>>> clarity: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> With a lot of draw going on, I had the 50-amp breaker on > >> the > >>>>> park pole > >>>>>>>> blow, plus the main inside breakers, plus the breaker > > for > >> the > >>>>> inverter. > >>>>>>>> Power was lost on the inverter circuit, and did not > > return > >>>> when > >>>>> breakers > >>>>>>>> were turned back on with reduced draw. The inverter, a > >> ProSine > >>>>> 2.0, is > >>>>>>> toast > >>>>>>>> - burnt components obvious when opening the case. I > >> removed > >>>> the > >>>>> inverter > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> wired input/output together for power on the inverted > >> circuit > >>>>> when on > >>>>>>> park > >>>>>>>> power, and bought a small charger to keep the batteries > > up > >>>> while > >>>>> parked. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Xantrex sent out a new ProSine 2.0 (half-price, well out- > >> of- > >>>>> warranty) > >>>>>>> and I > >>>>>>>> will get it tomorrow. I've been worrying about hooking > > it > >> up > >>>>> without > >>>>>>> knowing > >>>>>>>> what caused the failure. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Problem number 2: Yesterday I moved, and on arrival at a > >> park > >>>> in > >>>>> Ogallala > >>>>>>>> the 50-amp park breaker blew as soon as turned on. After > >>>> turning > >>>>> off the > >>>>>>>> internal main breakers I was able to get the park > > breaker > >> to > >>>>> hold after > >>>>>>> one > >>>>>>>> more failure. The breaker was "spongy" so I wasn't sure > > if > >> it > >>>>> was just > >>>>>>> weak. > >>>>>>>> Turning on the main breakers inside worked fine. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Moved again today, and the problem repeated except that > >>>> nothing > >>>>> would > >>>>>>> make > >>>>>>>> it work. In trying various things I found that my 30/50 > >> cord > >>>>> worked fine. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So, I took the coach connector apart and found: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Screw for black wire fell out, and was quite black on > > the > >> end. > >>>>> White and > >>>>>>>> Red attached, but screw not tight. Green was not > > attached > >> at > >>>>> all - screw > >>>>>>> all > >>>>>>>> the way in, and wire laid across the top. Contacting > > case, > >> but > >>>>> who knows > >>>>>>> how > >>>>>>>> well. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It is amazing I had power at all. I cut the end off and > >>>> rebuilt > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> connector, and had no problem turning on the power. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It would seem to be an odd coincidence if problem one > > was > >> not > >>>>> caused by > >>>>>>>> problem two, but since the ProSine 2.0 should in theory > >> work > >>>>> regardless > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> what occurs on the input side I'm not sure what the > >> connection > >>>>> is. > >>>>>>> Anybody > >>>>>>>> have thoughts on this? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Don Bradner > >>>>>>>> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" > >>>>>>>> Posting today by satellite from Grand Island, Nebraska > >>>>>>>> My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Curt Sprenger > >>>>>>> 1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing" > >>>>>>> Anaheim Hills, CA > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > |
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08-30-2008, 02:21
Post: #22
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electrical problems
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08-30-2008, 02:47
Post: #23
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electrical problems
Juertgen, you can only get 240V across the two hot wires. when that happens, the
neutral (white) is not carrying any load at all. The neutral line carries only the differential. If you have 50 amps of 120 in use on one leg, and 50 amps on the other leg, again the neutral is not carrying any load. If one leg is drawing 30 amps and the other 50, the neutral will have 20 amps of current present. The three statements above are true because the two hot legs are opposite phase. When viewed as a sine wave, when one is on the upside of the cycle the other is on the downside of the cycle. The separate 4th wire (green or bare) is ground. It is not intended to carry any current, and is a protective line only. In a home system the common and ground are bonded, but under RV code they are not bonded, so they are not at all the same thing. On 8/30/2008 at 7:21 AM Juergen wrote: >Mike >Here is where I am at a loss as to why you get 250 V when only one wire >either green or bare makes contact. I know that 2 hot and one ground =250V >I do not understand why the bare wire contact then allows two 110 V. And >like I said before, I never try to put or pull the plug UNLESS the CBs are >OFF. The way I read your post, I could survive or not even get a 250 surge >even if the bare wire is not making contact. I cannot say for sure, but I >also will never try it. Electric system is too costly. All I know is 250 V >will really brighten up your lights for a brief moment and fry all the >other components. Been there done that (in my house.) >Juertgen in PA >1991 WLSP36 |
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08-30-2008, 04:46
Post: #24
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electrical problems
Hi Juergen,
+1 on what Don said. The big rig/MH 50 A service is actually two split phase 110V 50A legs (the two legs in your main box) or 220V 50A across the two hot legs. > The way I read your post, I could survive or not even get a 250 > surge even if the bare wire is not making contact. I cannot say > for sure, but I also will never try it. That is how, and here is how, I understand it. The neutral or white wire is the differential or 'return' flow. The green is ground for safety. If I have to lose one, I am much safer to have lost the neutral rather than the safety ground. As I understand it, when you lose the neutral on the RV wiring configuration, any return differential is now going down the other the hot line in the case of imbalance. If you lose the safety ground and any of the hot wires touches metal, you potentially fry stuff, and/or you can become the ground when stepping on/off the bus. Not a good thing, for sure. That's why I said if I have to lose one, I was happy it was the neutral - less potential risk to me personally. > I never try to put or pull the plug UNLESS the CBs are > OFF. Excellent idea, which everyone should also follow (always ticks me off when I come to a pedestal that still has the CB on after the last person left). However, when pulling out those sometime slippery 50A plugs, I know we probably all often also grab the wire below the plug to help 'wiggle' the plug out. The constant handing and wiggling torques the wire bundle which eventually loosened my neutral, if it had ever been tightened properly in the first place. That's why everyone should check their plugs for tight wiring connections. (Thinking about it now, my old plug also did not have any strain relief collar around the wires behind the plug to help reduce the wiggling wires in the plug.) FWIW. In any event, I do not like working on 30/50A wiring, but I enjoy the end results of using it. Off to the Bird to maybe go somewhere.... everyone have a good weekend. Mike Bulriss 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan" San Antonio, TX --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner" > > Juertgen, you can only get 240V across the two hot wires. when that happens, the neutral (white) is not carrying any load at all. > > The neutral line carries only the differential. If you have 50 amps of 120 in use on one leg, and 50 amps on the other leg, again the neutral is not carrying any load. > > If one leg is drawing 30 amps and the other 50, the neutral will have 20 amps of current present. > > The three statements above are true because the two hot legs are opposite phase. When viewed as a sine wave, when one is on the upside of the cycle the other is on the downside of the cycle. > > The separate 4th wire (green or bare) is ground. It is not intended to carry any current, and is a protective line only. > > In a home system the common and ground are bonded, but under RV code they are not bonded, so they are not at all the same thing. > > On 8/30/2008 at 7:21 AM Juergen wrote: > > >Mike > >Here is where I am at a loss as to why you get 250 V when only one wire > >either green or bare makes contact. I know that 2 hot and one ground =250V > >I do not understand why the bare wire contact then allows two 110 V. And > >like I said before, I never try to put or pull the plug UNLESS the CBs are > >OFF. The way I read your post, I could survive or not even get a 250 surge > >even if the bare wire is not making contact. I cannot say for sure, but I > >also will never try it. Electric system is too costly. All I know is 250 V > >will really brighten up your lights for a brief moment and fry all the > >other components. Been there done that (in my house.) > >Juertgen in PA > >1991 WLSP36 > |
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08-30-2008, 11:46
Post: #25
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electrical problems
Don, MikeHolt site has good info about electrical crap. In it he has an article about bonding neutral and groundanda electromagnetic issue with electronic equipment. there is too muchthere to paraphrase in this post. he does a good job with explanation of the particulars. I use an outside search engine to look at his forum because there are too many threads with redundent info.
GregoryO'Connor 94ptRomolandCa |
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08-30-2008, 15:11
Post: #26
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electrical problems
This is why a Bluebird is better than a Prevost
mbulriss <mbulriss@...> wrote:
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08-30-2008, 15:12
Post: #27
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electrical problems
four wires Two hot for 240v one ground one common Jim Riordan Juergen
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09-02-2008, 13:13
Post: #28
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electrical problems
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