Retrofit a diesel-fired heating system?

[Scott Forman]

Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating systems to
a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind that one
should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the loop for
the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
engineer. Any advice on this?

Scott Forman
86 PT38
Memphis

[thomas_sorrentino]

Scott,

NH Bill has just recently done exactly what your inquiring about.
Hopefully he'll see this and let you know details. As far as I know
it went pretty smoothly and he is very happy with it.

Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38
Bedford Hills, NY
Where I'm reluctantly winterizing the coach today!


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Forman"
<scottforman75@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating systems
to
> a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind that
one
> should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the loop
for
> the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> engineer. Any advice on this?
>
> Scott Forman
> 86 PT38
> Memphis
>

[Donald Watson]

The Webasto Thermo 90 is definitely a decent unit. I installed one on the
38' sailboat I lived on for seventeen years. The Thermo 90 was used
continuously for seven or eight years, logging well over 4,500 hrs. It
feeds four radiators, the output of each escapes me at the moment, but each
must be rated well in excess of 5,000 btu.

I have had an issue, however, and that's that the burner appears to burn too
lean. I've had to replace, with new or rebuilt, the burner tubes several
times. I believe that I might have to throttle down the inlet. Webasto
offers some diagnostic software and a 'pigtail' with which to convert to a
serial port feed. I've got to locate this package and remedy the problem,
but I remain an advocate of Webasto products. It's good to know that the
Thermo 90 was sufficient to heat Scott's PT38.

Scott, you could include a thermo switch embedded in a ¾" union to close a
power relay controlling the bus heater motors. Once the coolant temperature
dropped below, say 140 deg. F, the fans would shut down. If you haven't
already done this, another advantage of the temperature contactor would be
to prevent cold air from blowing until the re-circulating coolant was up to
temp.

Donn
76FC33
South Kingstown, RI


From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Garamella
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:37 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Retrofit a diesel-fired heating system?

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
, "Scott Forman"
<scottforman75@...>
wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating systems to
> a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind that one
> should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the loop for
> the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> engineer. Any advice on this?
>
> Scott Forman
> 86 PT38
> Memphis
>
Hello Scott,

I recently installed a Webasto Thermo 90 in our 83 FC. We installed it in
the rear driver's
side compartment. I am very happy with the outcome. The plumbing is the easy
part.
Installed it in series with the aux pump loop just before the pump.

Tapped the fuel tank from a spare 3/8 plug that was already equipped with a
standpipe.

The electrical is a bit involved. Installed diodes and power supply for the
aux pump and
winter/summer Sporlan valves with an additional winter summer switch for the
Webasto.
The pump will automatically run when the Webasto is on.

By doing this we did not have to disturb any of the dash wiring /functions.
Therefore,
when the Webasto is off, the hydronic system still functions as it was
designed to with
the engine running.

The Thermo 90 is a varaiable output boiler from 6K to 31K BTU. It is very
efficient.

I have been testing it and it will warm up the coach and block nicely from
20 degrees F
to comfortable room temps within 30 to 40 minuets. Heat starts coming out of
the
coach exchangers within 10 minuets.

The only issue I have not resolved yet has to do with the coach blowers. I
bypassed the
aux bus where they were originally powered and put them on a dedicated 20
amp circuit
at the mid coach sub panel. This is not idiot proof in that once the
thermostat is
satisfied, the blowers will turn off but the blower porwer is still on. If
the Webasto is shut
down, the risk of forgetting to turn off the blower power remains and the
blowers will
run once the temp falls.

I have lots of documentation and photos if you are interested. email
bgaramella@...

NH Bill 83 FC "Casa Billisa"

[Bill Garamella]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Forman" <scottforman75@...>
wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating systems to
> a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind that one
> should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the loop for
> the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> engineer. Any advice on this?
>
> Scott Forman
> 86 PT38
> Memphis
>
Hello Scott,

I recently installed a Webasto Thermo 90 in our 83 FC. We installed it in the
rear driver's
side compartment. I am very happy with the outcome. The plumbing is the easy
part.
Installed it in series with the aux pump loop just before the pump.

Tapped the fuel tank from a spare 3/8 plug that was already equipped with a
standpipe.

The electrical is a bit involved. Installed diodes and power supply for the aux
pump and
winter/summer Sporlan valves with an additional winter summer switch for the
Webasto.
The pump will automatically run when the Webasto is on.

By doing this we did not have to disturb any of the dash wiring /functions.
Therefore,
when the Webasto is off, the hydronic system still functions as it was designed
to with
the engine running.

The Thermo 90 is a varaiable output boiler from 6K to 31K BTU. It is very
efficient.

I have been testing it and it will warm up the coach and block nicely from 20
degrees F
to comfortable room temps within 30 to 40 minuets. Heat starts coming out of
the
coach exchangers within 10 minuets.

The only issue I have not resolved yet has to do with the coach blowers. I
bypassed the
aux bus where they were originally powered and put them on a dedicated 20 amp
circuit
at the mid coach sub panel. This is not idiot proof in that once the thermostat
is
satisfied, the blowers will turn off but the blower porwer is still on. If the
Webasto is shut
down, the risk of forgetting to turn off the blower power remains and the
blowers will
run once the temp falls.

I have lots of documentation and photos if you are interested. email
bgaramella@...

NH Bill 83 FC "Casa Billisa"

[Bill Garamella]

"you could include a thermo switch embedded in a ¾" union to close a
power relay controlling the bus heater motors. Once the coolant temperature
dropped below, say 140 deg. F, the fans would shut down. If you haven't
already done this, another advantage of the temperature contactor would be
to prevent cold air from blowing until the re-circulating coolant was up to
temp."

Donn,

This sounds like the perfect solution. I don't know anything about thermo
switches or
embedding them in unions. But , i imagine it to be relatively simple and I
think I have a
guy who can help me with this. Thanks for the idea. I bet it will work nicely.

I am thinking about a similar solution for the Yanmar/Kohler gen-set fan. I
want to
quiet the thing down and am condsindering installing a 12Volt fan in addition to
the 1/2
hp AC beast. Use the 12 volt until temps rise enough to kick in the AC unit.
I imagine I can install an embeded thermo switch that will turn it the AC unit
on and off
by temp.

Shane did something like this on his 85 PT and it works well. The fan operates
intermittently. I don't think he has incorporated the 12 Volt fan into the mix.
I imagine
with the DC fan running all the time, one could really reduce the amount of time
the AC
unit runs.... unless of course your under heavy load like running 3- CruisAirs.

NH BIll
1983 FC 35 "Casa Billisa"

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Donald Watson" wrote:
>
> The Webasto Thermo 90 is definitely a decent unit. I installed one on the
> 38' sailboat I lived on for seventeen years. The Thermo 90 was used
> continuously for seven or eight years, logging well over 4,500 hrs. It
> feeds four radiators, the output of each escapes me at the moment, but each
> must be rated well in excess of 5,000 btu.
>
> I have had an issue, however, and that's that the burner appears to burn too
> lean. I've had to replace, with new or rebuilt, the burner tubes several
> times. I believe that I might have to throttle down the inlet. Webasto
> offers some diagnostic software and a 'pigtail' with which to convert to a
> serial port feed. I've got to locate this package and remedy the problem,
> but I remain an advocate of Webasto products. It's good to know that the
> Thermo 90 was sufficient to heat Scott's PT38.
>
> Scott, you could include a thermo switch embedded in a ¾" union to close a
> power relay controlling the bus heater motors. Once the coolant temperature
> dropped below, say 140 deg. F, the fans would shut down. If you haven't
> already done this, another advantage of the temperature contactor would be
> to prevent cold air from blowing until the re-circulating coolant was up to
> temp.
>
> Donn
> 76FC33
> South Kingstown, RI
>
>
> From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Garamella
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:37 PM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Retrofit a diesel-fired heating system?
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> , "Scott Forman"
> <scottforman75@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating systems to
> > a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> > coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind that one
> > should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the loop for
> > the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> > engineer. Any advice on this?
> >
> > Scott Forman
> > 86 PT38
> > Memphis
> >
> Hello Scott,
>
> I recently installed a Webasto Thermo 90 in our 83 FC. We installed it in
> the rear driver's
> side compartment. I am very happy with the outcome. The plumbing is the easy
> part.
> Installed it in series with the aux pump loop just before the pump.
>
> Tapped the fuel tank from a spare 3/8 plug that was already equipped with a
> standpipe.
>
> The electrical is a bit involved. Installed diodes and power supply for the
> aux pump and
> winter/summer Sporlan valves with an additional winter summer switch for the
> Webasto.
> The pump will automatically run when the Webasto is on.
>
> By doing this we did not have to disturb any of the dash wiring /functions.
> Therefore,
> when the Webasto is off, the hydronic system still functions as it was
> designed to with
> the engine running.
>
> The Thermo 90 is a varaiable output boiler from 6K to 31K BTU. It is very
> efficient.
>
> I have been testing it and it will warm up the coach and block nicely from
> 20 degrees F
> to comfortable room temps within 30 to 40 minuets. Heat starts coming out of
> the
> coach exchangers within 10 minuets.
>
> The only issue I have not resolved yet has to do with the coach blowers. I
> bypassed the
> aux bus where they were originally powered and put them on a dedicated 20
> amp circuit
> at the mid coach sub panel. This is not idiot proof in that once the
> thermostat is
> satisfied, the blowers will turn off but the blower porwer is still on. If
> the Webasto is shut
> down, the risk of forgetting to turn off the blower power remains and the
> blowers will
> run once the temp falls.
>
> I have lots of documentation and photos if you are interested. email
> bgaramella@...
>
> NH Bill 83 FC "Casa Billisa"
>

[Pete Masterson]

There's nothing to stop you from doing it -- given that you have the
time and money to engage in the effort. In my '95, the AquaHot is
placed filling part of two bays on the street side. (These are
shallow bays as the fuel tank is in the center.) You'd need to find
about 24" x 48" (this is an estimate, I didn't measure) of free space
in your basement to hold the system.

The big effort would be to thread the tubing for the interior heat
radiators and to wire in the thermostats. This task would certainly
be much easier when the RV was in a state of partial construction (or
otherwise gutted inside) and is likely to be very labor intensive as
a retrofit. If you were doing serious redecorating (new floor, for
example) and were to remove all the furnishings, it might be easier
to manage the retrofit at the same time.

I also note that an Aquahot unit is several thousands of dollars
(although, used units might be available from a salvage yard).

Frankly, I'd think you'd be better off to 'trade up' your 'bird for
one that already has a hydronic heating system (either Webasto or
AquaHot). I note that the retrofit (after the time and expense)
probably won't add any value to your coach on resale.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Newberry Springs, CA



On Dec 6, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Scott Forman wrote:

> Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating systems to
> a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind that one
> should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the loop for
> the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> engineer. Any advice on this?
>
> Scott Forman
> 86 PT38
> Memphis
>

[Bill Garamella]

Pete,

The Webasto Thermo 90 is relatively small. I estimate 18" l x 18" h x 8" d. It
weighs less
than 40 lbs with its stainless-steel case. There is no internal plumbing simply
two
radiator hose connections. This assumes the coach is already equipped with the
"coach
heat" that was standard on FCs and PTs through the 80s anyway.

The installation took two of us about one day. Next time around it would be
less.

http://www.webasto.us/am/en/am_rv_heaters_821.html

No doubt the funds spent on a unit purchased at retail price and installed by a
shop
would be difficult to directly recapture in a resale. However, it sure won't
hurt as a selling
feature when the time comes. An informed buyer may recognize the value of having
it.

NH Bill
1983 FC "Casa Billisa


-- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson wrote:
>
> There's nothing to stop you from doing it -- given that you have the
> time and money to engage in the effort. In my '95, the AquaHot is
> placed filling part of two bays on the street side. (These are
> shallow bays as the fuel tank is in the center.) You'd need to find
> about 24" x 48" (this is an estimate, I didn't measure) of free space
> in your basement to hold the system.
>
> The big effort would be to thread the tubing for the interior heat
> radiators and to wire in the thermostats. This task would certainly
> be much easier when the RV was in a state of partial construction (or
> otherwise gutted inside) and is likely to be very labor intensive as
> a retrofit. If you were doing serious redecorating (new floor, for
> example) and were to remove all the furnishings, it might be easier
> to manage the retrofit at the same time.
>
> I also note that an Aquahot unit is several thousands of dollars
> (although, used units might be available from a salvage yard).
>
> Frankly, I'd think you'd be better off to 'trade up' your 'bird for
> one that already has a hydronic heating system (either Webasto or
> AquaHot). I note that the retrofit (after the time and expense)
> probably won't add any value to your coach on resale.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> aeonix1@...
> On the road at Newberry Springs, CA
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Scott Forman wrote:
>
> > Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating systems to
> > a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> > coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind that one
> > should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the loop for
> > the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> > engineer. Any advice on this?
> >
> > Scott Forman
> > 86 PT38
> > Memphis
> >
>

[Stephen Birtles]

You may want to look at the dbw 2010 also smaller package more power
stephen 77fc35 with a webasto




In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Garamella"
wrote:
>
> Pete,
>
> The Webasto Thermo 90 is relatively small. I estimate 18" l x 18" h
x 8" d. It weighs less
> than 40 lbs with its stainless-steel case. There is no internal
plumbing simply two
> radiator hose connections. This assumes the coach is already
equipped with the "coach
> heat" that was standard on FCs and PTs through the 80s anyway.
>
> The installation took two of us about one day. Next time around it
would be less.
>
> http://www.webasto.us/am/en/am_rv_heaters_821.html
>
> No doubt the funds spent on a unit purchased at retail price and
installed by a shop
> would be difficult to directly recapture in a resale. However, it
sure won't hurt as a selling
> feature when the time comes. An informed buyer may recognize the
value of having it.
>
> NH Bill
> 1983 FC "Casa Billisa
>
>
> -- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson wrote:
> >
> > There's nothing to stop you from doing it -- given that you have the
> > time and money to engage in the effort. In my '95, the AquaHot is
> > placed filling part of two bays on the street side. (These are
> > shallow bays as the fuel tank is in the center.) You'd need to find
> > about 24" x 48" (this is an estimate, I didn't measure) of free
space
> > in your basement to hold the system.
> >
> > The big effort would be to thread the tubing for the interior heat
> > radiators and to wire in the thermostats. This task would certainly
> > be much easier when the RV was in a state of partial construction
(or
> > otherwise gutted inside) and is likely to be very labor intensive as
> > a retrofit. If you were doing serious redecorating (new floor, for
> > example) and were to remove all the furnishings, it might be easier
> > to manage the retrofit at the same time.
> >
> > I also note that an Aquahot unit is several thousands of dollars
> > (although, used units might be available from a salvage yard).
> >
> > Frankly, I'd think you'd be better off to 'trade up' your 'bird for
> > one that already has a hydronic heating system (either Webasto or
> > AquaHot). I note that the retrofit (after the time and expense)
> > probably won't add any value to your coach on resale.
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > aeonix1@
> > On the road at Newberry Springs, CA
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 6, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Scott Forman wrote:
> >
> > > Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating
systems to
> > > a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> > > coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind
that one
> > > should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the
loop for
> > > the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> > > engineer. Any advice on this?
> > >
> > > Scott Forman
> > > 86 PT38
> > > Memphis
> > >
> >
>

[Scott Forman]

What year did Birds start having these?


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> There's nothing to stop you from doing it -- given that you have
the
> time and money to engage in the effort. In my '95, the AquaHot is
> placed filling part of two bays on the street side. (These are
> shallow bays as the fuel tank is in the center.) You'd need to
find
> about 24" x 48" (this is an estimate, I didn't measure) of free
space
> in your basement to hold the system.
>
> The big effort would be to thread the tubing for the interior heat
> radiators and to wire in the thermostats. This task would
certainly
> be much easier when the RV was in a state of partial construction
(or
> otherwise gutted inside) and is likely to be very labor intensive
as
> a retrofit. If you were doing serious redecorating (new floor, for
> example) and were to remove all the furnishings, it might be
easier
> to manage the retrofit at the same time.
>
> I also note that an Aquahot unit is several thousands of dollars
> (although, used units might be available from a salvage yard).
>
> Frankly, I'd think you'd be better off to 'trade up' your 'bird
for
> one that already has a hydronic heating system (either Webasto or
> AquaHot). I note that the retrofit (after the time and expense)
> probably won't add any value to your coach on resale.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> aeonix1@...
> On the road at Newberry Springs, CA
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Scott Forman wrote:
>
> > Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating
systems to
> > a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
> > coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind
that one
> > should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the
loop for
> > the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
> > engineer. Any advice on this?
> >
> > Scott Forman
> > 86 PT38
> > Memphis
> >
>

[Pete Masterson]

I didn't realize that the 80's era 'birds had the "coach heat"
plumbing in place -- clearly, that would simplify the installation. I
(incorrectly) made the assumption that an installation would be from
scratch -- and seeing how the AquaHot on my coach was installed --
and I sure wouldn't want to do a retrofit if there weren't already
plumbing to accommodate the interior heaters.

It's good to know that the Webasto Thermo 90 is so compact. It's
about half the size of the AquaHot in my coach.

I agree, as a DIY project, it may be cost effective (a quick look
online shows pricing of a "kit" for about $5K with the unit itself at
about $3K) -- certainly, paying someone else for installation would
be quite expensive, I'm sure.

As a selling feature -- yes the upgrade certainly would add to the
desirability -- but, like most upgrades to our 'birds, it wouldn't
add so much value that you're recover more than a small percent of
the cost.

(Note: I've re-done my coach with a bamboo-wood floor -- and after a 4
+ month 'voyage' I've been very pleased with its performance and
cleanability (vs. the previous carpet). I'm sure that the (new) floor
would be attractive to a potential buyer -- but I don't expect to see
a dime of the upgrade cost when it comes time to sell my coach.)

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Newberry Springs, CA



On Dec 6, 2008, at 3:24 PM, Bill Garamella wrote:

> Pete,
>
> The Webasto Thermo 90 is relatively small. I estimate 18" l x 18" h
> x 8" d. It weighs less
> than 40 lbs with its stainless-steel case. There is no internal
> plumbing simply two
> radiator hose connections. This assumes the coach is already
> equipped with the "coach
> heat" that was standard on FCs and PTs through the 80s anyway.
>
> The installation took two of us about one day. Next time around it
> would be less.
>
> http://www.webasto.us/am/en/am_rv_heaters_821.html
>
> No doubt the funds spent on a unit purchased at retail price and
> installed by a shop
> would be difficult to directly recapture in a resale. However, it
> sure won't hurt as a selling
> feature when the time comes. An informed buyer may recognize the
> value of having it.
>
> NH Bill
> 1983 FC "Casa Billisa
>
>
> -- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
> wrote:
>>
>> There's nothing to stop you from doing it -- given that you have the
>> time and money to engage in the effort. In my '95, the AquaHot is
>> placed filling part of two bays on the street side. (These are
>> shallow bays as the fuel tank is in the center.) You'd need to find
>> about 24" x 48" (this is an estimate, I didn't measure) of free space
>> in your basement to hold the system.
>>
>> The big effort would be to thread the tubing for the interior heat
>> radiators and to wire in the thermostats. This task would certainly
>> be much easier when the RV was in a state of partial construction (or
>> otherwise gutted inside) and is likely to be very labor intensive as
>> a retrofit. If you were doing serious redecorating (new floor, for
>> example) and were to remove all the furnishings, it might be easier
>> to manage the retrofit at the same time.
>>
>> I also note that an Aquahot unit is several thousands of dollars
>> (although, used units might be available from a salvage yard).
>>
>> Frankly, I'd think you'd be better off to 'trade up' your 'bird for
>> one that already has a hydronic heating system (either Webasto or
>> AquaHot). I note that the retrofit (after the time and expense)
>> probably won't add any value to your coach on resale.
>>
>> Pete Masterson
>> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
>> aeonix1@...
>> On the road at Newberry Springs, CA
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 6, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Scott Forman wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone ever retrofitted one of the diesel-fired heating
>>> systems to
>>> a mid-80's PT? This one one of only a few features of the newer
>>> coaches that I really wish I had. It seems to my feeble mind
>>> that one
>>> should be able to install the unit in a bay and tap in to the
>>> loop for
>>> the original hot water heaters coming off the engine, but I am no
>>> engineer. Any advice on this?
>>>
>>> Scott Forman
>>> 86 PT38
>>> Memphis
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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