New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters

[Ron Thompson]

Pete, How did you get behind that mirror just above the curbside top drawer in your bedroom? I have looked at mine and I don't see any way to get behind them. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' (cockyfox@...) --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson wrote: From: Pete Masterson Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:57 PM On Jun 29, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Ron Thompson wrote: <snip> The Inverter panels are located on the same wall as the dead outlet but closer to the front. They are mounted one above the other. The lower one is the one that is dead. No indicator lights at all and the switch is on. I checked in the battery compartment where the coach batteries are located. The two Inverters are located at the top behind a screw lock door. I lowered the door and checked the pop out breakers on the front of the Inverters and all were OK with none of them popped out. One of the Inverters was very warn to the touch but the other one was not cold but was just a little warm. Probably from conduction from the other Inverter. I didn't see any easy to reset the cold inverter. I did turn the power switch off on it and waited a minute or so then turned it back on with no positive results. Ok this is a "bad sign" that the inverter isn't getting any power. Make sure the signal wires are connected to the batteries. They are very light weight wires hooked to a couple of the battery terminals. However, they're probably not the problem. There are some electrical things on the curb side accessible through the "grill door" to the engine side/battery compartment on the engine side of the bulkhead. I'm not sure what all that stuff is, but it's worth checking to ensure that there are no loose wires. I didn't see anything else to check out on them so closed them up and looked for the transfer switch which I found in the bay on the road side where the Aqua Hot system is located. It was mounted on the right wall of that bay in a metal box about 8 or 10 inches square and labled, Transfer Switch. Ah... I have one of those boxes. No label, however. No clue what's inside. I'd be sure the I'm disconnected from shore power -and- remove the negative cables from the battery posts before opening that one up. I'm guessing "shock hazard inside." There were no switches on control devices on the outside of the case. There was a coil type device on the bottom the case but I couldn't see what it was from the angle I had to view it. It looked as if you would have to remove the box and take off the cover to see what it was. If I had a schematic and a location diagram I might have some luck in identifying why that outlet by the drivers seat is not working. Three days ago it was working because I had my camera charger plugged into it and it worked fine for that. I got a ton of schematics -- but I can't tell what's wh! at. I do n't think I have anything that looks like 120v circuits -- all the diagrams I have looks like 12 v. That is about as far as I have gotten with it so far, Pete. Your ideas were very good and did remind me to check those GFI's As far as that cedar lined closet goes. I do have four breakers that are not in the closet but on the floor just under the right hand drawer that is just below the TV that is mounted above it. All four of the breakers were on and not tripped. I reset all four of them just in case but it did not change anything. Inside the closet on the right side down low near the floor of the closet is a removable felt covered panel. Behind it is a bunch of small relays or miniature breakers which I have no idea what they are for. I did visually check them out and did not see any thing out of the ordinarry. That's all 12vdc stuff. There's another power center toward the top (in my coach). Your floor plan sounds different in some respects. My inverter breakers are on the curb side. The main 120 VAC power panel is behind a mirror just above the curb-side drawer. < br> Is there another panel in that closet. I did not see a panel that was wooden that could be removed unless you are talking about the whole back wall of the closet. Yes, I'm talking about the "whole" back wall of the closet. There are two visible screws next to a small gap. At the top of the panel is a gray felt covered wood strip. Remove that strip (6 screws hidden in the felt) and you'll find another little gap and another 6 screws. Behind that whole back wall of the closet is a set of 8 or 9 120 VAC relays and some other wires down in the bottom of the hidden compartment. This is about all I can tell you at this point. I am no closer to a solution than I was this morning. The lack of schematics and location diagrams is the problem. I am an experienced electronic tech and can trouble shoot very well from a schematic and location diagrams. There is one thing I have learned about these birds, There is no easy project. They all are complicated and time consuming. You got that right! Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA aeonix1@mac. com

[Ron Thompson]

Pete, I found the hand hold down at the left bottom of that mirror over the drivers side drawer in the rear bedroom. However, no breakers had been tripped. There were two breakers labled Battery Chargers. I assume those were the Inverters since no others were labled Inverters. The breakers all felt good on the switch off and on. Good strong action. So I still have some work to do. Got to be something somewhere that is out. However the Inverter could just be bad. I am about to decide that is what is wrong. I came across the Mojave desert early last week and man was it hot. The inside of that engine area was hot as hell. That could have cause one of the Inverters to fail. I have to just keep looking. I am on my way to Alaska and leaving Eugene Or. on Wednesday to go up through Washington state to get to the Canadian border. I just don't have the time to tear things down and find the trouble. I just keep taking one thing a day and run it out and see if that works. The voltage rising when I am plugged into shore power worries me. It is now over 17 volts on the guages. However, measured with a digital Fluke meter it is still about 13.5 to 14 volts at the batteries. I need to do some more analysis on that to determine where that high voltage is. I thought those guages were attached right at the batteries to accurately measure the voltage at the coach and the engine batteries. Thanks Pete for your help. I am still in a deep learning curve on these coaches. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' (cockyfox@...) --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson wrote: From: Pete Masterson Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:57 PM On Jun 29, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Ron Thompson wrote: <snip> The Inverter panels are located on the same wall as the dead outlet but closer to the front. They are mounted one above the other. The lower one is the one that is dead. No indicator lights at all and the switch is on. I checked in the battery compartment where the coach batteries are located. The two Inverters are located at the top behind a screw lock door. I lowered the door and checked the pop out breakers on the front of the Inverters and all were OK with none of them popped out. One of the Inverters was very warn to the touch but the other one was not cold but was just a little warm. Probably from conduction from the other Inverter. I didn't see any easy to reset the cold inverter. I did turn the power switch off on it and waited a minute or so then turned it back on with no positive results. Ok this is a "bad sign" that the inverter isn't getting any power. Make sure the signal wires are connected to the batteries. They are very light weight wires hooked to a couple of the battery terminals. However, they're probably not the problem. There are some electrical things on the curb side accessible through the "grill door" to the engine side/battery compartment on the engine side of the bulkhead. I'm not sure what all that stuff is, but it's worth checking to ensure that there are no loose wires. I didn't see anything else to check out on them so closed them up and looked for the transfer switch which I found in the bay on the road side where the Aqua Hot system is located. It was mounted on the right wall of that bay in a metal box about 8 or 10 inches square and labled, Transfer Switch. Ah... I have one of those boxes. No label, however. No clue what's inside. I'd be sure the I'm disconnected from shore power -and- remove the negative cables from the battery posts before opening that one up. I'm guessing "shock hazard inside." There were no switches on control devices on the outside of the case. There was a coil type device on the bottom the case but I couldn't see what it was from the angle I had to view it. It looked as if you would have to remove the box and take off the cover to see what it was. If I had a schematic and a location diagram I might have some luck in identifying why that outlet by the drivers seat is not working. Three days ago it was working because I had my camera charger plugged into it and it worked fine for that. I got a ton of schematics -- but I can't tell what's wh! at. I do n't think I have anything that looks like 120v circuits -- all the diagrams I have looks like 12 v. That is about as far as I have gotten with it so far, Pete. Your ideas were very good and did remind me to check those GFI's As far as that cedar lined closet goes. I do have four breakers that are not in the closet but on the floor just under the right hand drawer that is just below the TV that is mounted above it. All four of the breakers were on and not tripped. I reset all four of them just in case but it did not change anything. Inside the closet on the right side down low near the floor of the closet is a removable felt covered panel. Behind it is a bunch of small relays or miniature breakers which I have no idea what they are for. I did visually check them out and did not see any thing out of the ordinarry. That's all 12vdc stuff. There's another power center toward the top (in my coach). Your floor plan sounds different in some respects. My inverter breakers are on the curb side. The main 120 VAC power panel is behind a mirror just above the curb-side drawer. < br> Is there another panel in that closet. I did not see a panel that was wooden that could be removed unless you are talking about the whole back wall of the closet. Yes, I'm talking about the "whole" back wall of the closet. There are two visible screws next to a small gap. At the top of the panel is a gray felt covered wood strip. Remove that strip (6 screws hidden in the felt) and you'll find another little gap and another 6 screws. Behind that whole back wall of the closet is a set of 8 or 9 120 VAC relays and some other wires down in the bottom of the hidden compartment. This is about all I can tell you at this point. I am no closer to a solution than I was this morning. The lack of schematics and location diagrams is the problem. I am an experienced electronic tech and can trouble shoot very well from a schematic and location diagrams. There is one thing I have learned about these birds, There is no easy project. They all are complicated and time consuming. You got that right! Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA aeonix1@mac. com

[Wayne Kotila]

Did you check all the breakers in your 120 volt panel, sometimes you can't tell that one is tripped and your two inverters should be on 2 seperate 120 volt breakers.

Wayne

---

From: Ron Thompson
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 2:05:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters

Pete, I have checked the pop out resets on the two Inverters and they were all in so no need to reset them I pressed them anyway just to make sure and they were solid in. What switch was it that you accidentally hit. I have looked at everything on the dasboard console and didn't notice anything that jumped out at me. It appears that a breaker has been tripped. I did check those 4 breakers you mentiobned and tripped all of them off then back on and it didn't chanbge a thing. The Inverter panely that is next to the drivers seat (two of them) , the bottom one is off. No indicators are lit at all. Evidently your coach has a different Inverter than mine. Mine is a Heart Interface, Freedom, Model # 25. I think the Inverter has a breaker tripped somewhere. I have some 120 volt outlets with no voltage even though I am plugged into shore power so that is a clue to the problem I would think. It appears that the shore powerr has a leg that is non functinbal. Got to go pick up the wife at the laudry right now but be back shortly. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' (cockyfox@sbcglobal .net) --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson wrote: From: Pete Masterson Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 1:16 PM I had a similar situation not long ago. After troubleshooting, I thought I'd have to replace the inverter. Eventually, I discovered that a switch on the control panel (next to the driver) had been accidently turned off. Turned it back on -- and now it works just fine. (I guess I must have bumped the switch while working with the HWH level controller right next to it.) I don't know what controller you have -- but a P.O. had installed a (Heart) Link 2000R controller. It manages the power output of the chargers and limits the charge rate to the batteries (I have AGMs and they require a lower voltage than regular wet cell batteries). On the downside, the Link 2000R controller takes an electrical engineer to operate it -- the manual is very difficult -- but I've been able to puzzle out the way to get it set up right for my batteries. The standard interface is not as adjustable -- but I'm not really familiar with it. The inverters have a small breaker on the front (inverters are inside a metal box just above the batteries inside the curb side battery compartment) . Push in to reset. There are dual breakers for each inverter. Mine are located in the bedroom on the engine bulkhead below the main 120 V electrical panel behind a carpet covered door (with an obvious handle). (I have a side-island bed.) 2 breakers for each inverter. These protect the inverter from an overload on an inverted circuit since the inverter power is NOT routed through the main 120 V panel. The back closet has a removable wooden panel which you might think is to access the engine from inside. You would be incorrect. I removed the panel the other day (in exploration) and discovered it covers a bunch (9 or 10) of 120 vac relays. I have no idea what they all serve (I didn't look for a wiring diagram -- I was just exploring). To remove the panel, you must remove about 6 screws in a gray felt covered strip, then remove 4 or so s! crews al ong the top edge and 2 screws further down -- but you probably don't need to get in there for this problem -- you should just be aware it's there. Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA aeonix1@mac. com On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Ron Thompson wrote: Good morning, I guess that when you go out on a trip is when everything really gets a workout. I left Texas 2 weeks ago and I have finally made my way to Eugene, Or. on my way to Alaska. I have had different kinds of problems arise and corrected them but I have now lost one of my Inverters This is not good for the batteries I would predict. I think that maybe the inverter is fused or has a breaker in the circuit but I have no idea where to look for that. If there is anyone out there familiar with the Inverter power circuits, transfer swithches, etc. please advise me. I would like to reset the Inverter that is down and see if it will hold. The type Inverter I have is the, Heart Interface, Freedom Model 25. There are two of them and one is offline. I don't have any schematics with me or location diag! rams.&nb sp; Maybe someone on the forum can help me in identifying how this system works and where the transfer switches are if there is such a thing on this coach. My coach is a 1995, WLWB, 42'. There must be a transfer switch somewhere that senses when shore power is available nad turns the 120 VAC from the Inverter off. That may be where the problem is. My greatest fear right now is that the Inverter that is still powered up is producing 16 volts to the batteries. That can't be good for the batteries I would think. My next fear is that the Inverter that is down will have to be replaced if it can't be restarted. That will cause me a delay for sure waiting for one to be shipped in and installed. All the other sytems seem to be okay, except for the LPG gas shut off valve that I presented to the forum about 2 weeks ago. I have not done anything about pulling that panel to see if the main shut off valve is turned off. I don't really have a need so far for it since my generator is now functioning properly. Any help with this will be appreciated. I am on a WIFI that finally works as it should. I am in Eugene, Or. at the Shamrock RV park located on Old Franklin Blvd. just off I-5. Nice cool weather here. Thanks again for your assistance. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' (cockyfox@sbcglobal. net)

[Gregory OConnor]

I have had good luck in the past with Xantrex documentation and telephone tech support on their website. I think you should have and be able to use a volt meter ac and dc first. without that tool you are poking in the dark.
Greg of Tim&Greg
94ptca

[Ron Thompson]

Wayne, I only have two breakers that are labled Battery chargers. None are labled "Inverters". I checked all the breakers and none had tripped. This is a real puzzler. The fact that the voltage is rising on the driver dash guages disturbs me. It is at 17 volts according to the guages but I measured the voltage at a lamp socket and it was 16 volts. That is still too high for a 12 volt bulb. One has blown already. I don't know why the voltage is rising like it is. It is a very slow rise. It started rising yesterday when we parked at this RV park and between 2pm and 10pm it had risen from 14 volts to 16 volts. and today as of 9:30 PM it is slightly over 17 volts. If I am going down the road with the engine power it is 14 volts. Go figger. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' (cockyfox@...) --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Wayne Kotila wrote: From: Wayne Kotila Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:19 PM Did you check all the breakers in your 120 volt panel, sometimes you can't tell that one is tripped and your two inverters should be on 2 seperate 120 volt breakers. Wayne From: Ron Thompson To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 2:05:14 PM Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters Pete, I have checked the pop out resets on the two Inverters and they were all in so no need to reset them I pressed them anyway just to make sure and they were solid in. What switch was it that you accidentally hit. I have looked at everything on the dasboard console and didn't notice anything that jumped out at me. It appears that a breaker has been tripped. I did check those 4 breakers you mentiobned and tripped all of them off then back on and it didn't chanbge a thing. The Inverter panely that is next to the drivers seat (two of them) , the bottom one is off. No indicators are lit at all. Evidently your coach has a different Inverter than mine. Mine is a Heart Interface, Freedom, Model # 25. I think the Inverter has a breaker tripped somewhere. I have some 120 volt outlets with no voltage even though I am plugged into shore power so that is a clue to the problem I would think. It appears that the shore powerr has a leg that is non functinbal. Got to go pick up the wife at the laudry right now but be back shortly. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' (cockyfox@sbcglobal .net) --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson wrote: From: Pete Masterson Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 1:16 PM I had a similar situation not long ago. After troubleshooting, I thought I'd have to replace the inverter. Eventually, I discovered that a switch on the control panel (next to the driver) had been accidently turned off. Turned it back on -- and now it works just fine. (I guess I must have bumped the switch while working with the HWH level controller right next to it.) I don't know what controller you have -- but a P.O. had installed a (Heart) Link 2000R controller. It manages the power output of the chargers and limits the charge rate to the batteries (I have AGMs and they require a lower voltage than regular wet cell batteries). On the downside, the Link 2000R controller takes an electrical engineer to operate it -- the manual is very difficult -- but I've been able to puzzle out the way to get it set up right for my batteries. The standard interface is not as adjustable -- but I'm not really familiar with it. The inverters have a small breaker on the front (inverters are inside a metal box just above the batteries inside the curb side battery compartment) . Push in to reset. There are dual breakers for each inverter. Mine are located in the bedroom on the engine bulkhead below the main 120 V electrical panel behind a carpet covered door (with an obvious handle). (I have a side-island bed.) 2 breakers for each inverter. These protect the inverter from an overload on an inverted circuit since the inverter power is NOT routed through the main 120 V panel. The back closet has a removable wooden panel which you might think is to access the engine from inside. You would be incorrect. I removed the panel the other day (in exploration) and discovered it covers a bunch (9 or 10) of 120 vac relays. I have no idea what they all serve (I didn't look for a wiring diagram -- I was just exploring). To remove the panel, you must remove about 6 screws in a gray felt covered strip, then remove 4 or so s! crews al ong the top edge and 2 screws further down -- but you probably don't need to get in there for this problem -- you should just be aware it's there. Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA aeonix1@mac. com On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Ron Thompson wrote: Good morning, I guess that when you go out on a trip is when everything really gets a workout. I left Texas 2 weeks ago and I have finally made my way to Eugene, Or. on my way to Alaska. I have had different kinds of problems arise and corrected them but I have now lost one of my Inverters This is not good for the batteries I would predict. I think that maybe the inverter is fused or has a breaker in the circuit but I have no idea where to look for that. If there is anyone out there familiar with the Inverter power circuits, transfer swithches, etc. please advise me. I would like to reset the Inverter that is down and see if it will hold. The type Inverter I have is the, Heart Interface, Freedom Model 25. There are two of them and one is offline. I don't have any schematics with me or location diag! rams.&nb sp; Maybe someone on the forum can help me in identifying how this system works and where the transfer switches are if there is such a thing on this coach. My coach is a 1995, WLWB, 42'. There must be a transfer switch somewhere that senses when shore power is available nad turns the 120 VAC from the Inverter off. That may be where the problem is. My greatest fear right now is that the Inverter that is still powered up is producing 16 volts to the batteries. That can't be good for the batteries I would think. My next fear is that the Inverter that is down will have to be replaced if it can't be restarted. That will cause me a delay for sure waiting for one to be shipped in and installed. All the other sytems seem to be okay, except for the LPG gas shut off valve that I presented to the forum about 2 weeks ago. I have not done anything about pulling that panel to see if the main shut off valve is turned off. I don't really have a need so far for it since my generator is now functioning properly. Any help with this will be appreciated. I am on a WIFI that finally works as it should. I am in Eugene, Or. at the Shamrock RV park located on Old Franklin Blvd. just off I-5. Nice cool weather here. Thanks again for your assistance. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' (cockyfox@sbcglobal. net)

[Don Bradner]

Older Birds had separate inverters and chargers. Modern units, and the Freedom
25 qualifies, are inverter/converters, with the converter referring to charger.

A breaker marked "Charger" pretty much has to be going to your inverters,
because those are your only chargers.

When there is shore power the breakers control power going to your converter,
which in turn is putting out DC.

The thing that holds your output voltage down is your batteries. If you are
running 17, but measuring 14 a the batteries then one would suspect that the
batteries aren't getting anything at all from the converters, and the coach is
getting all of its power from the converters.

If you flip the breakers off, any DC power you see should be from the batteries
- do DC items work OK in that mode?

On 6/29/2009 at 9:33 PM Ron Thompson wrote:

>Wayne,
>
>I only have two breakers that are labled Battery chargers. None are
>labled "Inverters". I checked all the breakers and none had tripped.
>This is a real puzzler. The fact that the voltage is rising on the driver
>dash guages disturbs me. It is at 17 volts according to the guages but I
>measured the voltage at a lamp socket and it was 16 volts. That is still
>too high for a 12 volt bulb. One has blown already. I don't know why the
>voltage is rising like it is. It is a very slow rise. It started rising
>yesterday when we parked at this RV park and between 2pm and 10pm it had
>risen from 14 volts to 16 volts. and today as of 9:30 PM it is slightly
>over 17 volts.
>
>If I am going down the road with the engine power it is 14 volts. Go
>figger.
>
>
>
>
>Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
>
>1995 WLWB 42'
>
>(cockyfox@...)
>
>--- On Mon, 6/29/09, Wayne Kotila wrote:
>
>From: Wayne Kotila
>Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom
>Inverters
>To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:19 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Did you check all the breakers in your 120 volt panel, sometimes you
>can't tell that one is tripped and your two inverters should be on 2
>seperate 120 volt breakers.
>Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Ron Thompson
>To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 2:05:14 PM
>Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom
>Inverters
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Pete,
>
>I have checked the pop out resets on the two Inverters and they were all
>in so no need to reset them I pressed them anyway just to make sure and
>they were solid in.
>
>What switch was it that you accidentally hit. I have looked at everything
>on the dasboard console and didn't notice anything that jumped out at me.
>
>It appears that a breaker has been tripped. I did check those 4 breakers
>you mentiobned and tripped all of them off then back on and it didn't
>chanbge a thing. The Inverter panely that is next to the drivers seat
>(two of them) , the bottom one is off. No indicators are lit at all.
>Evidently your coach has a different Inverter than mine. Mine is a Heart
>Interface, Freedom, Model # 25.
>
>I think the Inverter has a breaker tripped somewhere. I have some 120
>volt outlets with no voltage even though I am plugged into shore power so
>that is a clue to the
> problem I would think. It appears that the shore powerr has a leg that
>is non functinbal.
>
>Got to go pick up the wife at the laudry right now but be back shortly.
>
>
>Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
>1995 WLWB 42'
>(cockyfox@sbcglobal .net)
>
>--- On Mon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson wrote:
>
>
>From: Pete Masterson
>Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom
>Inverters
>To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 1:16 PM
>
>
>
>
>I had a similar situation not long ago. After troubleshooting, I thought
>I'd have to replace the inverter. Eventually, I discovered that a switch
>on the control panel (next to the driver) had been accidently turned off.
>Turned it back on -- and now it works just fine. (I guess I must have
>bumped the switch while working with the HWH level controller right next
>to it.)
>
>
>I don't know what controller you have -- but a P.O. had installed a
>(Heart) Link 2000R controller. It manages the power output of the chargers
>and limits the charge rate to the batteries (I have AGMs and they require
>a lower voltage than regular wet cell batteries). On the downside, the
>Link 2000R controller takes an electrical engineer to operate it -- the
>manual is very difficult -- but I've been able to puzzle out the way to
>get it set up right for my batteries.
>
>
>The standard interface is not as adjustable -- but I'm not really familiar
>with it.
>
>
>The inverters have a small breaker on the front (inverters are inside a
>metal box just above the batteries inside the curb side battery
>compartment) . Push in to reset. There are dual breakers for each
>inverter. Mine are located in the bedroom on the engine bulkhead below the
>main 120 V electrical panel behind a carpet covered door (with an obvious
>handle). (I have a side-island bed.) 2 breakers for each inverter. These
>protect the inverter from an overload on an inverted circuit since the
>inverter power is NOT routed through the main 120 V panel.
>
>
>The back closet has a removable wooden panel which you might think is to
>access the engine from inside. You would be incorrect. I removed the panel
>the other day (in exploration) and discovered it covers a bunch (9 or 10)
>of 120 vac relays. I have no idea what they all serve (I didn't look for a
>wiring diagram -- I was just exploring). To remove the panel, you must
>remove about 6 screws in a gray felt covered strip, then remove 4 or so s!
>crews al ong the top edge and 2 screws further down -- but you probably
>don't need to get in there for this problem -- you should just be aware
>it's there.
>
>
>
>
>
>Pete Masterson
>'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
>El Sobrante CA
>aeonix1@mac. com
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Ron Thompson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Good morning,
>
>I guess that when you go out on a trip is when everything really gets a
>workout. I left Texas 2 weeks ago and I have finally made my way to
>Eugene, Or. on my way to Alaska. I have had different kinds of problems
>arise and corrected them but I have now lost one of my Inverters This is
>not good for the batteries I would predict.
>
>I think that maybe the inverter is fused or has a breaker in the circuit
>but I have no idea where to look for that.
>
>If there is anyone out there familiar with the Inverter power circuits,
>transfer swithches, etc. please advise me. I would like to reset the
>Inverter that is down and see if it will hold.
>
>The type Inverter I have is the, Heart Interface, Freedom Model 25. There
>are two of them and one is offline. I don't have any schematics with me
>or location diag!
> rams.&nb sp; Maybe someone on the forum can help me in identifying how
>this system works and where the transfer switches are if there is such a
>thing on this coach.
>
>My coach is a 1995, WLWB, 42'. There must be a transfer switch somewhere
>that senses when shore power is available nad turns the 120 VAC from the
>Inverter off. That may be where the problem is.
>
>My greatest fear right now is that the Inverter that is still powered up
>is producing 16 volts to the batteries. That can't be good for the
>batteries I would think. My next fear is that the Inverter that is down
>will have to be replaced if it can't be restarted. That will cause me a
>delay for sure waiting for one to be shipped in and installed.
>
>All the other sytems seem to be okay, except for the LPG gas shut off
>valve that I presented to the forum about 2 weeks ago. I have not done
> anything about pulling that panel to see if the main shut off valve is
>turned off. I don't really have a need so far for it since my generator
>is now functioning properly.
>
>Any help with this will be appreciated. I am on a WIFI that finally works
>as it should. I am in Eugene, Or. at the Shamrock RV park located on Old
>Franklin Blvd. just off I-5. Nice cool weather here.
>
>Thanks again for your assistance.
>
>
>
>Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
>1995 WLWB 42'
>(cockyfox@sbcglobal. net)

[jcmace59]

Ron,
I've run into a similar situation as you are seeing. The lower inverter panel
and it's corresponding inverter (IIRC, it's the rear most inverter) seems to do
some really funny things. A while back, it would start "equalizing" at over 16V
whenever it was turned on. That's not good for the AGM's that are in my coach,
so I turned it off most of the time for quite some time. After several cylces
of trying it, watching it go high on voltage and turning it back off, it finally
decided to stop equalizing and give me normal voltage. But, the upper control
panel and it's inverter have ALWAYS done correctly. So I use it the most. You
should have the 4 breakers Pete has spoken of. The 2 lower ones, behind the
carpeted panel and the 2 in the main panel behind the mirror. Mine are the 2
upper on one side, I can't remember which side though. They are marked in mine.
I just had a stupid thing occur to me. I came back from the LSB rally, parked
the coach and plugged her in just as I normally do. I came back about 2 weeks
later, only to find that I'm not getting any charging what so ever. I'm
thinking, great the other inverter has crapped out! After much looking and
checking things all over the place (including looking for the breakers to my
stall in the storage facility (a needle in the haystack)), it turns out that I
didn't have the 30A cord fully plugged into the 50A cord on the coach! It was
only lacking about 3/32"!! I plugged it in and viola- eveything works as it has
previously.

What happens when you run the genny and turn the inverters on?

I checked the dip switches on the back of the controller panels and even though
they're set correctly and not supposed to equalize, one seemed to want to. I
get an overload indicator whenever I try to charge with that inverter. I'll
have to get into that sometime. Some have indicated that the inverter should
charge even though it is off. Mine need to be on to charge, but maybe yours is
set up to charge when off and stuck in the equaliztion mode, as mine was? That
would explain why you're getting high voltage, but everything seems to be off.

I'll bet that because the panel is completely dead, the phone cord connection
wire has a problem someplace. Try connecting the other cable from the other
panel to the "dead" panel and see what happens. That should tell you for
certain whether you have a cable/inverter problem or a panel problem.

Just my .02 on the issue. Hope it helps.


John




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner" wrote:
>
> Older Birds had separate inverters and chargers. Modern units, and the Freedom
25 qualifies, are inverter/converters, with the converter referring to charger.
>
> A breaker marked "Charger" pretty much has to be going to your inverters,
because those are your only chargers.
>
> When there is shore power the breakers control power going to your converter,
which in turn is putting out DC.
>
> The thing that holds your output voltage down is your batteries. If you are
running 17, but measuring 14 a the batteries then one would suspect that the
batteries aren't getting anything at all from the converters, and the coach is
getting all of its power from the converters.
>
> If you flip the breakers off, any DC power you see should be from the
batteries - do DC items work OK in that mode?
>
> On 6/29/2009 at 9:33 PM Ron Thompson wrote:
>
> >Wayne,
> >
> >I only have two breakers that are labled Battery chargers. None are
> >labled "Inverters". I checked all the breakers and none had tripped.
> >This is a real puzzler. The fact that the voltage is rising on the driver
> >dash guages disturbs me. It is at 17 volts according to the guages but I
> >measured the voltage at a lamp socket and it was 16 volts. That is still
> >too high for a 12 volt bulb. One has blown already. I don't know why the
> >voltage is rising like it is. It is a very slow rise. It started rising
> >yesterday when we parked at this RV park and between 2pm and 10pm it had
> >risen from 14 volts to 16 volts. and today as of 9:30 PM it is slightly
> >over 17 volts.
> >
> >If I am going down the road with the engine power it is 14 volts. Go
> >figger.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> >
> >1995 WLWB 42'
> >
> >(cockyfox@...)
> >
> >--- On Mon, 6/29/09, Wayne Kotila wrote:
> >
> >From: Wayne Kotila
> >Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom
> >Inverters
> >To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:19 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Did you check all the breakers in your 120 volt panel, sometimes you
> >can't tell that one is tripped and your two inverters should be on 2
> >seperate 120 volt breakers.
> >Wayne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >From: Ron Thompson
> >To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 2:05:14 PM
> >Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom
> >Inverters
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Pete,
> >
> >I have checked the pop out resets on the two Inverters and they were all
> >in so no need to reset them I pressed them anyway just to make sure and
> >they were solid in.
> >
> >What switch was it that you accidentally hit. I have looked at everything
> >on the dasboard console and didn't notice anything that jumped out at me.
> >
> >It appears that a breaker has been tripped. I did check those 4 breakers
> >you mentiobned and tripped all of them off then back on and it didn't
> >chanbge a thing. The Inverter panely that is next to the drivers seat
> >(two of them) , the bottom one is off. No indicators are lit at all.
> >Evidently your coach has a different Inverter than mine. Mine is a Heart
> >Interface, Freedom, Model # 25.
> >
> >I think the Inverter has a breaker tripped somewhere. I have some 120
> >volt outlets with no voltage even though I am plugged into shore power so
> >that is a clue to the
> > problem I would think. It appears that the shore powerr has a leg that
> >is non functinbal.
> >
> >Got to go pick up the wife at the laudry right now but be back shortly.
> >
> >
> >Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> >1995 WLWB 42'
> >(cockyfox@sbcglobal .net)
> >
> >--- On Mon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson wrote:
> >
> >
> >From: Pete Masterson
> >Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom
> >Inverters
> >To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 1:16 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I had a similar situation not long ago. After troubleshooting, I thought
> >I'd have to replace the inverter. Eventually, I discovered that a switch
> >on the control panel (next to the driver) had been accidently turned off.
> >Turned it back on -- and now it works just fine. (I guess I must have
> >bumped the switch while working with the HWH level controller right next
> >to it.)
> >
> >
> >I don't know what controller you have -- but a P.O. had installed a
> >(Heart) Link 2000R controller. It manages the power output of the chargers
> >and limits the charge rate to the batteries (I have AGMs and they require
> >a lower voltage than regular wet cell batteries). On the downside, the
> >Link 2000R controller takes an electrical engineer to operate it -- the
> >manual is very difficult -- but I've been able to puzzle out the way to
> >get it set up right for my batteries.
> >
> >
> >The standard interface is not as adjustable -- but I'm not really familiar
> >with it.
> >
> >
> >The inverters have a small breaker on the front (inverters are inside a
> >metal box just above the batteries inside the curb side battery
> >compartment) . Push in to reset. There are dual breakers for each
> >inverter. Mine are located in the bedroom on the engine bulkhead below the
> >main 120 V electrical panel behind a carpet covered door (with an obvious
> >handle). (I have a side-island bed.) 2 breakers for each inverter. These
> >protect the inverter from an overload on an inverted circuit since the
> >inverter power is NOT routed through the main 120 V panel.
> >
> >
> >The back closet has a removable wooden panel which you might think is to
> >access the engine from inside. You would be incorrect. I removed the panel
> >the other day (in exploration) and discovered it covers a bunch (9 or 10)
> >of 120 vac relays. I have no idea what they all serve (I didn't look for a
> >wiring diagram -- I was just exploring). To remove the panel, you must
> >remove about 6 screws in a gray felt covered strip, then remove 4 or so s!
> >crews al ong the top edge and 2 screws further down -- but you probably
> >don't need to get in there for this problem -- you should just be aware
> >it's there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Pete Masterson
> >'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> >El Sobrante CA
> >aeonix1@mac. com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Ron Thompson wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Good morning,
> >
> >I guess that when you go out on a trip is when everything really gets a
> >workout. I left Texas 2 weeks ago and I have finally made my way to
> >Eugene, Or. on my way to Alaska. I have had different kinds of problems
> >arise and corrected them but I have now lost one of my Inverters This is
> >not good for the batteries I would predict.
> >
> >I think that maybe the inverter is fused or has a breaker in the circuit
> >but I have no idea where to look for that.
> >
> >If there is anyone out there familiar with the Inverter power circuits,
> >transfer swithches, etc. please advise me. I would like to reset the
> >Inverter that is down and see if it will hold.
> >
> >The type Inverter I have is the, Heart Interface, Freedom Model 25. There
> >are two of them and one is offline. I don't have any schematics with me
> >or location diag!
> > rams.&nb sp; Maybe someone on the forum can help me in identifying how
> >this system works and where the transfer switches are if there is such a
> >thing on this coach.
> >
> >My coach is a 1995, WLWB, 42'. There must be a transfer switch somewhere
> >that senses when shore power is available nad turns the 120 VAC from the
> >Inverter off. That may be where the problem is.
> >
> >My greatest fear right now is that the Inverter that is still powered up
> >is producing 16 volts to the batteries. That can't be good for the
> >batteries I would think. My next fear is that the Inverter that is down
> >will have to be replaced if it can't be restarted. That will cause me a
> >delay for sure waiting for one to be shipped in and installed.
> >
> >All the other sytems seem to be okay, except for the LPG gas shut off
> >valve that I presented to the forum about 2 weeks ago. I have not done
> > anything about pulling that panel to see if the main shut off valve is
> >turned off. I don't really have a need so far for it since my generator
> >is now functioning properly.
> >
> >Any help with this will be appreciated. I am on a WIFI that finally works
> >as it should. I am in Eugene, Or. at the Shamrock RV park located on Old
> >Franklin Blvd. just off I-5. Nice cool weather here.
> >
> >Thanks again for your assistance.
> >
> >
> >
> >Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> >1995 WLWB 42'
> >(cockyfox@sbcglobal. net)
>

[martingregg598]

Ron, this may sound simple but just to check, did you fire up the generator and
see what went on? If your coach has a Lyght Speed transfer switch, it will
default to the generator contactors. I have had my transfer switch only hook up
on one leg of the shore power and it does funny stuff to the electrical system.
Inside the Lyght Speed is two contactors and a small third switch that gets
crapped up and has to be cycled to scrub clean. If I were getting a
progressively higher voltage 16 to 17 volts, I would shut it down before I
started losing a lot of stuff. Also my dad started getting high dc voltage and
it was the battery isolator.
Marty Gregg
95 BMC 37
Kennewick Wa

[Pete Masterson]

The main AC breaker panel (power center) is behind a swinging mirror (door). To access the box, you remove the front panel of the breaker box (that is how they're designed). Usually 4 screws, one in each corner -- but some boxes might have screws at top and bottom. They're always located out near the edge. If you lose a screw, don't replace it with a longer screw! (Some fool did that on my home panel, and when tightened, it shorts a wire inside the box. Dumb.)

That exposes the breakers, and the wires in the box. Be extremely careful, as there is plenty of current that can kill you. Unplug the shore power. Do not run the generator. Remove the negative wire from all batteries (don't want the inverters inverting while you're inside the box). Check with a non-contact AC probe to ensure that there is no power. Once you are absolutely certain that there is no power, then you can proceed with checking for lose wires, signs of burned/shorted wires, and bad breakers.

You can pry out the breakers. One end is held by a lip, the other is a metal pin that pushes into the power distribution bars. Once you have the breaker in your hand, you can use a continuity tester to check that power can flow when the breaker is on (and not, when it is off). Since a whole leg seems to be involved, I'd check the main breaker (at the top) and then individual circuits. If the breakers all work, and there are no obvious wiring problems in the box, then the problem is likely elsewhere.

You can probably assume that the wires between the box and the outlets/appliances are OK, unless there have been repairs or damage to any of the intermediate wiring. There is a small possibility that rodents have chewed through wires (if you've had rodents in the coach) but that would typically cause a breaker to trip or a significant electrical fire -- and you should have noticed it.

Breaker panels are not normally accessible from the back. They will have holes on the top, bottom, or sides to allow wires into and out of the box. They are probably Romex but there may be conduits.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:33 PM, Ron Thompson wrote:

Pete, How did you get behind that mirror just above the curbside top drawer in your bedroom? I have looked at mine and I don't see any way to get behind them. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' ("cockyfox@sbcglobal.net") --- OnMon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson<"aeonix1@mac.com">wrote: From: Pete Masterson <"aeonix1@mac.com"> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters To:"WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com" Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:57 PM On Jun 29, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Ron Thompson wrote: <snip> The Inverter panels are located on the same wall as the dead outlet but closer to the front. They are mounted one above the other. The lower one is the one that is dead. No indicator lights at all and the switch is on. I checked in the battery compartment where the coach batteries are located. The two Inverters are located at the top behind a screw lock door. I lowered the door and checked the pop out breakers on the front of the Inverters and all were OK with none of them popped out. One of the Inverters was very warn to the touch but the other one was not cold but was just a little warm. Probably from conduction from the other Inverter. I didn't see any easy to reset the cold inverter. I did turn the power switch off on it and waited a minute or so then turned it back on with no positive results. Ok this is a "bad sign" that the inverter isn't getting any power. Make sure the signal wires are connected to the batteries. They are very light weight wires hooked to a couple of the battery terminals. However, they're probably not the problem. There are some electrical things on the curb side accessible through the "grill door" to the engine side/battery compartment on the engine side of the bulkhead. I'm not sure what all that stuff is, but it's worth checking to ensure that there are no loose wires. I didn't see anything else to check out on them so closed them up and looked for the transfer switch which I found in the bay on the road side where the Aqua Hot system is located. It was mounted on the right wall of that bay in a metal box about 8 or 10 inches square and labled, Transfer Switch. Ah... I have one of those boxes. No label, however. No clue what's inside. I'd be sure the I'm disconnected from shore power -and- remove the negative cables from the battery posts before opening that one up. I'm guessing "shock hazard inside." There were no switches on control devices on the outside of the case. There was a coil type device on the bottom the case but I couldn't see what it was from the angle I had to view it. It looked as if you would have to remove the box and take off the cover to see what it was. If I had a schematic and a location diagram I might have some luck in identifying why that outlet by the drivers seat is not working. Three days ago it was working because I had my camera charger plugged into it and it worked fine for that. I got a ton of schematics -- but I can't tell what's wh! at. I do n't think I have anything that looks like 120v circuits -- all the diagrams I have looks like 12 v. That is about as far as I have gotten with it so far, Pete. Your ideas were very good and did remind me to check those GFI's As far as that cedar lined closet goes. I do have four breakers that are not in the closet but on the floor just under the right hand drawer that is just below the TV that is mounted above it. All four of the breakers were on and not tripped. I reset all four of them just in case but it did not change anything. Inside the closet on the right side down low near the floor of the closet is a removable felt covered panel. Behind it is a bunch of small relays or miniature breakers which I have no idea what they are for. I did visually check them out and did not see any thing out of the ordinarry. That's all 12vdc stuff. There's another power center toward the top (in my coach). Your floor plan sounds different in some respects. My inverter breakers are on the curb side. The main 120 VAC power panel is behind a mirror just above the curb-side drawer. < br> Is there another panel in that closet. I did not see a panel that was wooden that could be removed unless you are talking about the whole back wall of the closet. Yes, I'm talking about the "whole" back wall of the closet. There are two visible screws next to a small gap. At the top of the panel is a gray felt covered wood strip. Remove that strip (6 screws hidden in the felt) and you'll find another little gap and another 6 screws. Behind that whole back wall of the closet is a set of 8 or 9 120 VAC relays and some other wires down in the bottom of the hidden compartment. This is about all I can tell you at this point. I am no closer to a solution than I was this morning. The lack of schematics and location diagrams is the problem. I am an experienced electronic tech and can trouble shoot very well from a schematic and location diagrams. There is one thing I have learned about these birds, There is no easy project. They all are complicated and time consuming. You got that right! Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA aeonix1@mac. com

[Pete Masterson]

I wouldn't rule out that an inverter has failed. The charger would still work as it's a separate part. The high heat may have precipitated a failure. The basic test of the inverter is to check for 12 vdc 'hot' at the input and 120 VAC at the output. Bench test is best -- but that involves removing the inverter. As you suggested (earlier) the cold (well, cooler) one is the likely culprit.

Since I never got to the point of removing my inverter (for a bench test), I can't comment on what's inside the inverter enclosure.

The increasing voltage (shown on the inverter control panel?) is a concern -- but if the voltage at the batteries is still at 13.5 ~ 14, then I have to wonder about the volt meter. What do the _dash_ meters read? (Be sure the chassis/house crossover switch is off, when you check.) If they're in the normal range, then the 17 volt reading may be spurious -- and a fault in the inverter control system.

When I thought I had a dead inverter, I didn't have anything reading out of normal range (and my inverter panel still was alive). But then, as it turned out, my problem was only a mis-set switch.

I'd try turning off one then the other "battery charger" breakers (on the 120 vac panel) and checking the voltage reading then. It may be that the charger on the bad inverter has lost its control circuits and is "running away." If that's the case, battery damage could eventually occur. (Or turn both charger breakers off, then turn one, then the other on...)

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 29, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Ron Thompson wrote:

Pete, I found the hand hold down at the left bottom of that mirror over the drivers side drawer in the rear bedroom. However, no breakers had been tripped. There were two breakers labled Battery Chargers. I assume those were the Inverters since no others were labled Inverters. The breakers all felt good on the switch off and on. Good strong action. So I still have some work to do. Got to be something somewhere that is out. However the Inverter could just be bad. I am about to decide that is what is wrong. I came across the Mojave desert early last week and man was it hot. The inside of that engine area was hot as hell. That could have cause one of the Inverters to fail. I have to just keep looking. I am on my way to Alaska and leaving Eugene Or. on Wednesday to go up through Washington state to get to the Canadian border. I just don't have the time to tear things down and find the trouble. I just keep taking one thing a day and run it out and see if that works. The voltage rising when I am plugged into shore power worries me. It is now over 17 volts on the guages. However, measured with a digital Fluke meter it is still about 13.5 to 14 volts at the batteries. I need to do some more analysis on that to determine where that high voltage is. I thought those guages were attached right at the batteries to accurately measure the voltage at the coach and the engine batteries. Thanks Pete for your help. I am still in a deep learning curve on these coaches. Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx. 1995 WLWB 42' ("cockyfox@sbcglobal.net") --- OnMon, 6/29/09, Pete Masterson<"aeonix1@mac.com">wrote: From: Pete Masterson <"aeonix1@mac.com"> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New problem,,,,lost one of my Freedom Inverters To:"WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com" Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:57 PM On Jun 29, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Ron Thompson wrote: <snip> The Inverter panels are located on the same wall as the dead outlet but closer to the front. They are mounted one above the other. The lower one is the one that is dead. No indicator lights at all and the switch is on. I checked in the battery compartment where the coach batteries are located. The two Inverters are located at the top behind a screw lock door. I lowered the door and checked the pop out breakers on the front of the Inverters and all were OK with none of them popped out. One of the Inverters was very warn to the touch but the other one was not cold but was just a little warm. Probably from conduction from the other Inverter. I didn't see any easy to reset the cold inverter. I did turn the power switch off on it and waited a minute or so then turned it back on with no positive results. Ok this is a "bad sign" that the inverter isn't getting any power. Make sure the signal wires are connected to the batteries. They are very light weight wires hooked to a couple of the battery terminals. However, they're probably not the problem. There are some electrical things on the curb side accessible through the "grill door" to the engine side/battery compartment on the engine side of the bulkhead. I'm not sure what all that stuff is, but it's worth checking to ensure that there are no loose wires. I didn't see anything else to check out on them so closed them up and looked for the transfer switch which I found in the bay on the road side where the Aqua Hot system is located. It was mounted on the right wall of that bay in a metal box about 8 or 10 inches square and labled, Transfer Switch. Ah... I have one of those boxes. No label, however. No clue what's inside. I'd be sure the I'm disconnected from shore power -and- remove the negative cables from the battery posts before opening that one up. I'm guessing "shock hazard inside." There were no switches on control devices on the outside of the case. There was a coil type device on the bottom the case but I couldn't see what it was from the angle I had to view it. It looked as if you would have to remove the box and take off the cover to see what it was. If I had a schematic and a location diagram I might have some luck in identifying why that outlet by the drivers seat is not working. Three days ago it was working because I had my camera charger plugged into it and it worked fine for that. I got a ton of schematics -- but I can't tell what's wh! at. I do n't think I have anything that looks like 120v circuits -- all the diagrams I have looks like 12 v. That is about as far as I have gotten with it so far, Pete. Your ideas were very good and did remind me to check those GFI's As far as that cedar lined closet goes. I do have four breakers that are not in the closet but on the floor just under the right hand drawer that is just below the TV that is mounted above it. All four of the breakers were on and not tripped. I reset all four of them just in case but it did not change anything. Inside the closet on the right side down low near the floor of the closet is a removable felt covered panel. Behind it is a bunch of small relays or miniature breakers which I have no idea what they are for. I did visually check them out and did not see any thing out of the ordinarry. That's all 12vdc stuff. There's another power center toward the top (in my coach). Your floor plan sounds different in some respects. My inverter breakers are on the curb side. The main 120 VAC power panel is behind a mirror just above the curb-side drawer. < br> Is there another panel in that closet. I did not see a panel that was wooden that could be removed unless you are talking about the whole back wall of the closet. Yes, I'm talking about the "whole" back wall of the closet. There are two visible screws next to a small gap. At the top of the panel is a gray felt covered wood strip. Remove that strip (6 screws hidden in the felt) and you'll find another little gap and another 6 screws. Behind that whole back wall of the closet is a set of 8 or 9 120 VAC relays and some other wires down in the bottom of the hidden compartment. This is about all I can tell you at this point. I am no closer to a solution than I was this morning. The lack of schematics and location diagrams is the problem. I am an experienced electronic tech and can trouble shoot very well from a schematic and location diagrams. There is one thing I have learned about these birds, There is no easy project. They all are complicated and time consuming. You got that right! Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA aeonix1@mac. com