LXi and WideBody PTO/Pump Splines

[cmillsap]

(07-06-2013 10:56)timetravelers Wrote:  Where are the best places to purchase the:

1. Chelsea 1" spline kit 328591-129X

2. QCC pump 1"-15T CPC 1049 CPC 030-R-2-AF-BC

& what's the delivery time?

I need to change mine, it's starting to make noises.

Morey,

There is a little confusion as to what is required to convert a greasable 7/8" PTO & Pump to a 1" wet splined PTO & Pump.

If your present PTO is the original 7/8" size; the 1" pump and 1" wet spline will not fit that 7/8" PTO. You will need to purchase a new 1" PTO or have your 7/8" PTO converted to accept the 1" pump and 1" wet spline.

I had my 7/8" PTO rebuilt rather than buying a new 1" PTO. I believe that is less expensive than buying a new 1" PTO. I was quoted $1800 for a new one. I do not have the list of parts yet or the rebuild labor cost but will have that shortly when I pick up my bus from the repair shop. I will post exactly what is needed when I have the exact information.

Here's a photo of my rebuilt PTO.



Chuck

[timetravelers]

Thanks, Pete & Chuck.

It's looks like my best bet is to remove the assembly myself, send the PTO for a rebuild to someone like Stewart & Stevenson, who is the closest Allison dealer when I get to CO at Pueblo. Then I will need to reassemble like Pete did with a new pump which I can purchase from the best source. I guess I'll have to give S & S the PTO 1" spline rebuild kit number. Chuck it will be interesting to get the costs for the work on your LXi. Do you think I could do the rebuild myself on the bench?

[davidbrady]

Hi Morey,

Back in March of 2012 I ordered a 1" PTO from these folks ($675, $30 ship, 2 week lead time):

Heavy Duty Services
3847 Prince Street,
Conway, AR 72034
Phone: (501) 329-0998

I ordered the pump from my local Hydraulics Shop ($795, also around a 30 day lead time):

Custom Hydraulics & Design, Inc
3822 Statesville Avenue
Charlotte NC 28206

(07-06-2013 11:23)pgchin Wrote:  BTW FWIW, like David, after I installed the new PTO and NEW Pump and ran it on the first 400 mile shakedown, it appears to have a "seal weep" on the output shaft of the new pump, more like a "weep". The new PTO is fine. About an ounce a run. Screw it, unless the weep turns into a leak I'll pull the pump and have my local guy change the shaft seal on the next fluid and filter change.......kinda disappointed in the company that now builds these pumps new. Most hydraulic shops can rebuild old pumps but only one company now build the pumps new..........

I feel your pain Pete! Leaks are very frustrating and leaks in new equipment are just plain infuriating! My leak was at the grease fitting on the shaft of the PTO. If you're leaking hydraulic fluid from the pump I'd be a little concerned of hydraulic fluid filling the cavity which joins the PTO to the Pump and eventually overwhelming the seal at the PTO which would mean hydraulic fluid in the transmission.

[pgchin]

(07-07-2013 09:30)davidmbrady Wrote:  I feel your pain Pete! Leaks are very frustrating and leaks in new equipment are just plain infuriating! My leak was at the grease fitting on the shaft of the PTO. If you're leaking hydraulic fluid from the pump I'd be a little concerned of hydraulic fluid filling the cavity which joins the PTO to the Pump and eventually overwhelming the seal at the PTO which would mean hydraulic fluid in the transmission.

Thanks David, I'll keep an eye on it, Right now it is just a weep!

[pgchin]

Update:
SOOO, with the monsoon rains subsiding, I finally got to get under the bus to look at the pump "weep".

Observations:
- It truly is a weep, no noticeable loss of fluid, still at the same tank level
- The cavity is empty and stays empty??? Huh!!! How do I know that, well there is an inspection "port" / line hole not used in the back of the PTO flange you must put a plug in. I removed the plug, used a dental mirror and high powered flashlight. I can see all the way into the cavity and the shaft splines not in the pump, cavity is dry
- The weep oozes out between the PTO Flange and Pump, where it bolts up.

I will FIX this when I get home in the fall as the next walk about will be a very long one.

Questions:
Does the wet spline conversion have a different PTO flange from the grease version? to better seal the PTO and Pump cavity???????

If you convert to wet spline and the pump seal eventually lets go as other owners plus myself reported, are you now mixing hydraulic fluid and pumping it into the transmission as David suggested????

I am not berating anyone's decisions on how to upgrade the PTO/Pump...We are all adults and in the end we call our own ball and live with our decisions. I just want to report what I see going on in my new grease setup.......... new pump AND new PTO
FWIW my 18 year old no grease, no wet setup NEVER leaked a drop of either fluid and the splines would have lasted another 3-4 years...They sure don't SPEC and make things like they used to!!!!!

[cmillsap]

(07-09-2013 09:22)pgchin Wrote:  Update:
SOOO, with the monsoon rains subsiding, I finally got to get under the bus to look at the pump "weep".

Observations:
- It truly is a weep, no noticeable loss of fluid, still at the same tank level
- The cavity is empty and stays empty??? Huh!!! How do I know that, well there is an inspection "port" / line hole not used in the back of the PTO flange you must put a plug in. I removed the plug, used a dental mirror and high powered flashlight. I can see all the way into the cavity and the shaft splines not in the pump, cavity is dry
- The weep oozes out between the PTO Flange and Pump, where it bolts up.

I will FIX this when I get home in the fall as the next walk about will be a very long one.

Questions:
Does the wet spline conversion have a different PTO flange from the grease version? to better seal the PTO and Pump cavity???????

If you convert to wet spline and the pump seal eventually lets go as other owners plus myself reported, are you now mixing hydraulic fluid and pumping it into the transmission as David suggested????

I am not berating anyone's decisions on how to upgrade the PTO/Pump...We are all adults and in the end we call our own ball and live with our decisions. I just want to report what I see going on in my new grease setup.......... new pump AND new PTO
FWIW my 18 year old no grease, no wet setup NEVER leaked a drop of either fluid and the splines would have lasted another 3-4 years...They sure don't SPEC and make things like they used to!!!!!

Pete,

When switching from a greasable PTO to a wet spline; what happens to the grease in the PTO? It gets mixed with the transmission fluid;doesn't it? I doubt that it is enough to hurt anything but it may be prudent to flush out the grease by removing the end cap (the one with the grease fitting) for access. Also the grease fitting should be removed and the hole plugged or replace with a new end cap with no holes.

[pgchin]

(07-09-2013 13:28)cmillsap Wrote:  Pete,

When switching from a greasable PTO to a wet spline; what happens to the grease in the PTO? It gets mixed with the transmission fluid;doesn't it? I doubt that it is enough to hurt anything but it may be prudent to flush out the grease by removing the end cap (the one with the grease fitting) for access. Also the grease fitting should be removed and the hole plugged or replace with a new end cap with no holes.

Chuck,
Yes I understand on the initial wet conversion, the above may be true, BUT with a grease PTO, the tranny fluid and Hydraulic fluid are separated by two shaft seals and the cavity is theoretically empty and the two fluids never mix, as in my original setup... the cavity catching excess grease and hydraulic fluid over time. However, once is Steady state with a wet setup, if the pump shaft seal lets go with wear and age, then you are feeding hydraulic fluid into the tranny with the new PTO wet spline return line at 175PSI ALL THE TIME......hence if you have a wet spline setup, you need to periodically inspect the cavity to insure the pump shaft seal is holding. You need to do that as well in a grease setup and clean out the excess grease so it is a wash on either setup...... In my case the NEW PUMP shaft seal is defective and weeping hydraulic fluid right out of the bottom of the cavity face plate, the cavity never filling up and my cavity on the new setup is NOT fluid tight......... others have stated an eventual pump shaft seal leak, like mine, over time as the pump ages. Just something to be aware of so you do not have to incur the cost of a tranny rebuild.!
PS Periodic inspection on a wet spline setup is pretty simple and takes little time. Loosen the 2 bolts between the pump and pto that hold them together, catch the fluid in a cup as it comes out the bottom of the cavity and look at the fluid, if its all tranny fluid, no pump seal leak! :-) 20 minute job plus beer! :-0..........

[cmillsap]

(06-29-2013 01:05)cmillsap Wrote:  

(06-29-2013 00:23)davidmbrady Wrote:  Hi Chuck,

Thanks for clarifying the process for upgrading a SAE B (7/8"-13T) PTO to a wet splined SAE BB (1.0"-15T) PTO. I'm on your heels! This upgrade is on my short list.

Concerning the use of flex hose in place of the steel U-Pipe. From our Document Library, the Chelsea 267 PTO Installation documentation, page 3, has this to say:

Chelsea strongly recommends the use of pump supports (Support Brackets) in all applications.
P.T.O. warranty will be void if a pump bracket is not used when:
1) The combined weight of pump, fittings and hose exceed 40 pounds [18.14 kg].
2) The combined length of the P.T.O. and pump is 18 inches [45.72 cm] or more from the P.T.O.
centerline to the end of the pump.

It's been a while, but I think our combined PTO + Pump length is shorter than 18 inches and I think we come in at less than 40 lbs. If not, then the steel flex pipe does serve as a support of sorts. (It's better than nothing)!

Thanks, David,

I will get the part #'s and their cost together when I know what they are for sure and post the info here. I just don't have it broken out yet.

The problem with the steel u-line is the coupling nuts have bad threads.
A new steel U-line pipe would probably have to be custom made. The present u-line configuration does include a length of flexible hose.

I haven't measured it but I think it is less than 18"s but not much less. It may also be that the 1" pump is longer than the 7/8", I don't know that it is tho. I wouldn't be surprised if the weight exceeds 40#s. There may be a convenient way to add some bracing, I'll speak to Rolando about Chelsea's recommendations. I wouldn't want the weight to fatigue the bolts and let the assembly fall off. Yikes!

Here’s the cost comparison between buying a new 1” wet splined PTO and rebuilding your 7/8” greasable PTO into a 1” wet splined PTO’

I was quoted $1800 for a new 1” wet splined PTO.
David paid $675 for a 1” greasable PTO.

I am not aware of any difference between the two PTO(s) above as you can convert a greasable 1” PTO to a wet splined PTO simply by installing the Chelsea #328591-129x kit. I probably paid full retail as that was the price the manufacturer (Chelsea) quoted me.

I also paid more than David did for the 1” pump from CPC.
I paid $1482 for the CPC1049 pump.
David paid $795 for the same pump.

To rebuild the 7/8” PTO to 1” requires the following replacement parts;

1 CHE-328274 PTO closed end cap = $52.36
1 CHE-550397 1”i.d. bearing = $26.08
1 CHE-550532 1” i.d. bearing = 28.65
1 CHE-550439 1” i.d. bearing = 45.62
1 CHE-35-P-7 Gasket = 5.95

Total Parts = $ 152.71
PTO rebuild labor = 245.00

Total cost = $ 397.71
As compared to David’s cost of $675 for a new 1” PTO


If we use David’s cost, the total cost to convert from a 7/8” greasable PTO to a 1” wet spline PTO is:

1 CPC1049 1”pump $795.00
1 Rebuild of 7/8” to 1” PTO $397.71
1 129X wet spline kit $326.65
Totals $1519.36

Add the cost of hydraulic oil and filters and transmission fluid loss replacement.

[davidbrady]

Thanks Chuck, that's great information. You rounded out the pto/pump 1" upgrade picture! Many folks will be happy with these part numbers and procedures.

[Arcticdude]

I don't see the 1" female portion listed for the pto. Where is it hiding?