Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings

[transit360]

George,

1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a
different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out
that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on
over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This current
problem is with a Bluebird.
2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem,
not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in
the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus
line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions.
3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3 members
from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the
infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did.
4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about any
of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I
can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me
something to think about.
5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as well
as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think of
it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead
of just throwing parts at an engine.
6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat
without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and
replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and dispose
of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if
possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help do
that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy would
have paid for itself.

If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate screwing
around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the majority's
advice.
And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you think a
bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't argue
with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your input.

Steve
2 '98 QBRE Bluebird



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12"
<mrdonut12@y...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
> Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a
professional
> mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master
> Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification,
> Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto repair
> shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed over
> 34,000 cars.
> I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this thing
is
> to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish
baselines
> of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part of
the
> cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning
> thermostats in place.
> Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break.
> You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me and
> went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a
> thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more questions.
> My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do you
want
> to fix this thing?
>
> George Witt
> 81 FC 35
> Lincoln, Nebraska
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> wrote:
> > Tom and George,
> >
> > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp
reading on
> > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around 200
> > degrees also.
> > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat is.
I'm
> > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've
never
> > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to find a
> > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer.
> > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant
flow,
> > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a weak
water
> > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I should be
> > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the
same
> > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate it's
> > closed, yes? Sounds feasible.
> > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always run,
> > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if the
> > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or closed?
That
> > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat the
> > engine?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner

> > wrote:
> > > George what he established is that the radiator is not
exhanging
> > heat.
> > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference between
the
> > temp at
> > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more
then
> > likely
> > > because the thermostat is not open.
> > >
> > > tom
> > > 1982 FC35
> > > Vernon Center,Ny
> > >
> > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > > >Steve,
> > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current flow
> > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat.
> > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water
flow.
> > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you that
> > maybe
> > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly?
> > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the
> > thermostat
> > > >is working properly.
> > > >
> > > > George Witt
> > > > 81 FC 35
> > > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was
getting
> > some
> > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE Partybus. I
shot
> > the
> > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is what
my
> > bus
> > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it
read 130
> > > > > degrees.
> > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun
several
> > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a
drastic
> > change
> > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-20
> > degrees
> > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems?
> > > > >
> > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has green
(safe)
> > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the red.
My
> > bird
> > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this
normal?
> > Seems a
> > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins as I
have
> > dealt
> > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My other
> > Bluebird
> > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I
haven't
> > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----------
> > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > * Visit your group
> > >
> >
> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
> > on the web.
> > > > *
> > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > *
> > > > > > subject=Unsubscribe>WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > *
> > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----------

[mrdonut12]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
wrote:
> George,
>
>
> And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you think
a
> bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't
argue
> with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your
input.
You're welcome and thanks for the nice response. :o)
There are several thermostat tests. The first and easiest is to
start the engine completely cold, run it a few minutes and feel the
top of the radiator. If it gets warm at all within a few minutes,
the thermostat isn't closing completely. This is the first sign of a
weak thermostat, it doesn't seal up cold. This doesn't require a
Raytek.
The next test does require a Raytek. The output temp of the
upper radiator hose should stay fairly level until the thermostat
opens, at which time the temp should just shoot up suddenly to the
170 degree or more area. This indicates the thermostat has opened.
The temp may toggle up and down slightly as the thermostat cycles.
Those are the thermostat tests.
The real reason I suggested replacement of the thermostat is it
really is a wearout item and it's job is critical to keep the engine
temperature constant. A 10 degree deviation has a lot of effect on
the efficiency of the engine and the longevity of it. I replace mine
every 3 years as a maintenance item.
The first thing I did after I bought my Bird was to replace the
thermostats in both the engine and the generator. Both were found to
be worn out on physical examination. Just because it passes those
tests doesn't mean it will be reliable in the future.
Hope this helps.

George Witt
81 FC 35
Lincoln, Nebraska
>
> Steve
> 2 '98 QBRE Bluebird
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12"
> <mrdonut12@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a
> professional
> > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master
> > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification,
> > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto
repair
> > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed over
> > 34,000 cars.
> > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this thing
> is
> > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish
> baselines
> > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part of
> the
> > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning
> > thermostats in place.
> > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break.
> > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me
and
> > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a
> > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more
questions.
> > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do you
> want
> > to fix this thing?
> >
> > George Witt
> > 81 FC 35
> > Lincoln, Nebraska
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > wrote:
> > > Tom and George,
> > >
> > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp
> reading on
> > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around 200
> > > degrees also.
> > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat
is.
> I'm
> > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've
> never
> > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to find
a
> > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer.
> > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant
> flow,
> > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a weak
> water
> > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I should
be
> > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the
> same
> > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate it's
> > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible.
> > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always
run,
> > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if the
> > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or closed?
> That
> > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat
the
> > > engine?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Steve
> > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not
> exhanging
> > > heat.
> > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference between
> the
> > > temp at
> > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more
> then
> > > likely
> > > > because the thermostat is not open.
> > > >
> > > > tom
> > > > 1982 FC35
> > > > Vernon Center,Ny
> > > >
> > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > >Steve,
> > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current
flow
> > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat.
> > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water
> flow.
> > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you
that
> > > maybe
> > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly?
> > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the
> > > thermostat
> > > > >is working properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Witt
> > > > > 81 FC 35
> > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was
> getting
> > > some
> > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE Partybus. I
> shot
> > > the
> > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is
what
> my
> > > bus
> > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it
> read 130
> > > > > > degrees.
> > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun
> several
> > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a
> drastic
> > > change
> > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-20
> > > degrees
> > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has green
> (safe)
> > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the
red.
> My
> > > bird
> > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this
> normal?
> > > Seems a
> > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins as I
> have
> > > dealt
> > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My
other
> > > Bluebird
> > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I
> haven't
> > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----------
> > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > > >
> > > > > * Visit your group
> > > >
> > >
>
> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
> > > on the web.
> > > > > *
> > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > *
> > > > > > > > subject=Unsubscribe>WanderlodgeForum-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > > *
> > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----------

[Tom Warner]

You obviously are not listening to all of the advice you were given. If you
have a temperature gauge on your dash then you can very easily tell if your
thermostats are opening at the proper time and working correctly. WATCH the
gauge that is what they put it there for. The temperature will continue to
climb but should hit the thermostat temperature quickly when the engine is
running and you can see as the thermostat opens since the temp will start
to drop. Then the temp will stop going down again and slowly build up until
the thermostat once again opens and this cycle will continue until it
stabalizes. If the temp does not rise rather quickly after running the
engine with the bus moving, then most likely the thermostats are not
closing and are wide open. If the temp keeps climbing with out cycling off
and on then the thermostat is frozen shut.
If the bottom hose on the radiator is always cold, then once again the
thermostat is not opening and coolant is not flowing thru the radiator.
Same thing when you take the radiator cap off and watch the coolant flow
thru the radiator. You can tell when the thermostat opens since you will
immediately see coolant flow past the radiator neck.

For all of these you dont need a toy...you need to understand how the
cooling system works and how to troubleshoot it.

tom
1982 FC35
Vernon Center, NY


At 03:43 PM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>George,
>
> 1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a
>different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out
>that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on
>over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This current
>problem is with a Bluebird.
> 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem,
>not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in
>the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus
>line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions.
> 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3 members
>from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the
>infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did.
> 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about any
>of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I
>can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me
>something to think about.
> 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as well
>as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think of
>it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead
>of just throwing parts at an engine.
> 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat
>without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and
>replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and dispose
>of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if
>possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help do
>that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy would
>have paid for itself.
>
> If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate screwing
>around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the majority's
>advice.
> And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you think a
>bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't argue
>with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your input.
>
>Steve
>2 '98 QBRE Bluebird
>
>
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12"
><mrdonut12@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a
>professional
> > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master
> > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification,
> > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto repair
> > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed over
> > 34,000 cars.
> > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this thing
>is
> > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish
>baselines
> > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part of
>the
> > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning
> > thermostats in place.
> > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break.
> > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me and
> > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a
> > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more questions.
> > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do you
>want
> > to fix this thing?
> >
> > George Witt
> > 81 FC 35
> > Lincoln, Nebraska
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > wrote:
> > > Tom and George,
> > >
> > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp
>reading on
> > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around 200
> > > degrees also.
> > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat is.
>I'm
> > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've
>never
> > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to find a
> > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer.
> > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant
>flow,
> > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a weak
>water
> > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I should be
> > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the
>same
> > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate it's
> > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible.
> > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always run,
> > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if the
> > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or closed?
>That
> > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat the
> > > engine?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Steve
> > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not
>exhanging
> > > heat.
> > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference between
>the
> > > temp at
> > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more
>then
> > > likely
> > > > because the thermostat is not open.
> > > >
> > > > tom
> > > > 1982 FC35
> > > > Vernon Center,Ny
> > > >
> > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > >Steve,
> > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current flow
> > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat.
> > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water
>flow.
> > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you that
> > > maybe
> > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly?
> > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the
> > > thermostat
> > > > >is working properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Witt
> > > > > 81 FC 35
> > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was
>getting
> > > some
> > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE Partybus. I
>shot
> > > the
> > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is what
>my
> > > bus
> > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it
>read 130
> > > > > > degrees.
> > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun
>several
> > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a
>drastic
> > > change
> > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-20
> > > degrees
> > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has green
>(safe)
> > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the red.
>My
> > > bird
> > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this
>normal?
> > > Seems a
> > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins as I
>have
> > > dealt
> > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My other
> > > Bluebird
> > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I
>haven't
> > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----------
> > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > > >
> > > > > * Visit your group
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
"<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/\
WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
>
> > > on the web.
> > > > > *
> > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > *
> > > > > > > > subject=Unsubscribe>WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > > *
> > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > > > >
> <<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----------
>
>
>
>
>----------
>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group
> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" on the web.
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
>
Wanderl\
odgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>----------

[transit360]

So I took out my thermostats on the 8.3 Cummins. Two small ones,
as you might have guessed. Looked a little rusty in the thermo
housing by the way.
Put them in water and heated them to boiling. Each one barely
opened enough so you could see daylight from the bottom side.
I took some needlenose and pulled the thermostat rod out. It's
about an inch long. I'm assuming that most thermostats are the same
so correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the thermostats be capable
of opening up the full rod length at temp well over 200? Possibly up
to an inch? Just wanted to be sure to get a second opinion. I'm open
to any fact that may be evident, which includes a thermostat that
could possibly be designed to open by the slightest of gaps.
However if the thermostat is supposed to open wider, then that
means that the thermostat opened partially at operating temp, thus
the coolant flow would have been reduced, thus making it get hotter
under demand.
Don't worry, I'm going to the parts store tomorrow to get two
new thermostats and I'm testing them as well and then replacing the
old ones. Just wanted to double check and get a full understanding
of each mechanism and function, of even a thermostat rod.
Also, I'm going to test my antifreeze mixture in the engine. It
looked a little thin. Do I need to do this after I run the engine so
it's evenly mixed, or can I just test any of the antifreeze I
drained out b/c it's already mixed properly?
I would really like to flush the system due to the
brackishness of it, but I'm really hesitant until I get an full
manual of all the systems of this bus. Would anybody know where I
could get a manual for this Bluebird QBRE? I've contacted National
Bus Sales in Georgia (the local Bluebird dealer) and no luck yet.

Thanks
Steve
2 '98 QBRE Partybuses


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
> You obviously are not listening to all of the advice you were
given. If you
> have a temperature gauge on your dash then you can very easily
tell if your
> thermostats are opening at the proper time and working correctly.
WATCH the
> gauge that is what they put it there for. The temperature will
continue to
> climb but should hit the thermostat temperature quickly when the
engine is
> running and you can see as the thermostat opens since the temp
will start
> to drop. Then the temp will stop going down again and slowly build
up until
> the thermostat once again opens and this cycle will continue until
it
> stabalizes. If the temp does not rise rather quickly after running
the
> engine with the bus moving, then most likely the thermostats are
not
> closing and are wide open. If the temp keeps climbing with out
cycling off
> and on then the thermostat is frozen shut.
> If the bottom hose on the radiator is always cold, then once again
the
> thermostat is not opening and coolant is not flowing thru the
radiator.
> Same thing when you take the radiator cap off and watch the
coolant flow
> thru the radiator. You can tell when the thermostat opens since
you will
> immediately see coolant flow past the radiator neck.
>
> For all of these you dont need a toy...you need to understand how
the
> cooling system works and how to troubleshoot it.
>
> tom
> 1982 FC35
> Vernon Center, NY
>
>
> At 03:43 PM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> >George,
> >
> > 1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a
> >different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out
> >that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on
> >over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This
current
> >problem is with a Bluebird.
> > 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem,
> >not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in
> >the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus
> >line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions.
> > 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3
members
> >from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the
> >infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did.
> > 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about
any
> >of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I
> >can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me
> >something to think about.
> > 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as
well
> >as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think
of
> >it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead
> >of just throwing parts at an engine.
> > 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat
> >without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and
> >replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and
dispose
> >of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if
> >possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help
do
> >that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy
would
> >have paid for itself.
> >
> > If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate
screwing
> >around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the
majority's
> >advice.
> > And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you
think a
> >bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't
argue
> >with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your
input.
> >
> >Steve
> >2 '98 QBRE Bluebird
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12"
> ><mrdonut12@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve,
> > > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a
> >professional
> > > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master
> > > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification,
> > > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto
repair
> > > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed
over
> > > 34,000 cars.
> > > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this
thing
> >is
> > > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish
> >baselines
> > > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part
of
> >the
> > > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning
> > > thermostats in place.
> > > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break.
> > > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me
and
> > > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a
> > > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more
questions.
> > > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do
you
> >want
> > > to fix this thing?
> > >
> > > George Witt
> > > 81 FC 35
> > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > wrote:
> > > > Tom and George,
> > > >
> > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp
> >reading on
> > > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around
200
> > > > degrees also.
> > > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat
is.
> >I'm
> > > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've
> >never
> > > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to
find a
> > > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer.
> > > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant
> >flow,
> > > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a
weak
> >water
> > > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I
should be
> > > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the
> >same
> > > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate
it's
> > > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible.
> > > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always
run,
> > > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if
the
> > > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or
closed?
> >That
> > > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat
the
> > > > engine?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Steve
> > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not
> >exhanging
> > > > heat.
> > > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference
between
> >the
> > > > temp at
> > > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more
> >then
> > > > likely
> > > > > because the thermostat is not open.
> > > > >
> > > > > tom
> > > > > 1982 FC35
> > > > > Vernon Center,Ny
> > > > >
> > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > > >Steve,
> > > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current
flow
> > > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat.
> > > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water
> >flow.
> > > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you
that
> > > > maybe
> > > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly?
> > > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the
> > > > thermostat
> > > > > >is working properly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > George Witt
> > > > > > 81 FC 35
> > > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was
> >getting
> > > > some
> > > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE
Partybus. I
> >shot
> > > > the
> > > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is
what
> >my
> > > > bus
> > > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it
> >read 130
> > > > > > > degrees.
> > > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun
> >several
> > > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a
> >drastic
> > > > change
> > > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-
20
> > > > degrees
> > > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has
green
> >(safe)
> > > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the
red.
> >My
> > > > bird
> > > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this
> >normal?
> > > > Seems a
> > > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins
as I
> >have
> > > > dealt
> > > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My
other
> > > > Bluebird
> > > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I
> >haven't
> > > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----------
> > > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Visit your group
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> "<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>http://groups.yah
oo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
> >
> > > > on the web.
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > > > > > subject=Unsubscribe>WanderlodgeForum-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > > > > >
> >
<<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>Yahoo!
> > Terms of Service.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----------
> >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group
>
> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
on the web.
> > *
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > *
> > subject=Unsubscribe>WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > *
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >----------

[transit360]

BTW, I wanted to make sure my temp gauge was accurate b/c I've
had a few that have gone bad or ended up getting a mixed signal if
they are electric and someone accidently spliced into it, which is
another reason why I wanted to doublecheck it with the Raytek for
redundancy. Turns out the gauge is accurate but it gives me comfort
to be sure, especially with a new bus I'm not familiar with.

Steve
2 '98 QBRE Partybuses

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
wrote:
> So I took out my thermostats on the 8.3 Cummins. Two small
ones,
> as you might have guessed. Looked a little rusty in the thermo
> housing by the way.
> Put them in water and heated them to boiling. Each one barely
> opened enough so you could see daylight from the bottom side.
> I took some needlenose and pulled the thermostat rod out. It's
> about an inch long. I'm assuming that most thermostats are the
same
> so correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the thermostats be
capable
> of opening up the full rod length at temp well over 200? Possibly
up
> to an inch? Just wanted to be sure to get a second opinion. I'm
open
> to any fact that may be evident, which includes a thermostat that
> could possibly be designed to open by the slightest of gaps.
> However if the thermostat is supposed to open wider, then
that
> means that the thermostat opened partially at operating temp, thus
> the coolant flow would have been reduced, thus making it get
hotter
> under demand.
> Don't worry, I'm going to the parts store tomorrow to get two
> new thermostats and I'm testing them as well and then replacing
the
> old ones. Just wanted to double check and get a full understanding
> of each mechanism and function, of even a thermostat rod.
> Also, I'm going to test my antifreeze mixture in the engine.
It
> looked a little thin. Do I need to do this after I run the engine
so
> it's evenly mixed, or can I just test any of the antifreeze I
> drained out b/c it's already mixed properly?
> I would really like to flush the system due to the
> brackishness of it, but I'm really hesitant until I get an full
> manual of all the systems of this bus. Would anybody know where I
> could get a manual for this Bluebird QBRE? I've contacted National
> Bus Sales in Georgia (the local Bluebird dealer) and no luck yet.
>
> Thanks
> Steve
> 2 '98 QBRE Partybuses
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner

> wrote:
> > You obviously are not listening to all of the advice you were
> given. If you
> > have a temperature gauge on your dash then you can very easily
> tell if your
> > thermostats are opening at the proper time and working
correctly.
> WATCH the
> > gauge that is what they put it there for. The temperature will
> continue to
> > climb but should hit the thermostat temperature quickly when the
> engine is
> > running and you can see as the thermostat opens since the temp
> will start
> > to drop. Then the temp will stop going down again and slowly
build
> up until
> > the thermostat once again opens and this cycle will continue
until
> it
> > stabalizes. If the temp does not rise rather quickly after
running
> the
> > engine with the bus moving, then most likely the thermostats are
> not
> > closing and are wide open. If the temp keeps climbing with out
> cycling off
> > and on then the thermostat is frozen shut.
> > If the bottom hose on the radiator is always cold, then once
again
> the
> > thermostat is not opening and coolant is not flowing thru the
> radiator.
> > Same thing when you take the radiator cap off and watch the
> coolant flow
> > thru the radiator. You can tell when the thermostat opens since
> you will
> > immediately see coolant flow past the radiator neck.
> >
> > For all of these you dont need a toy...you need to understand
how
> the
> > cooling system works and how to troubleshoot it.
> >
> > tom
> > 1982 FC35
> > Vernon Center, NY
> >
> >
> > At 03:43 PM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > >George,
> > >
> > > 1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a
> > >different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned
out
> > >that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on
> > >over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This
> current
> > >problem is with a Bluebird.
> > > 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this
problem,
> > >not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm
in
> > >the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus
> > >line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions.
> > > 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3
> members
> > >from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get
the
> > >infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did.
> > > 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about
> any
> > >of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much
I
> > >can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me
> > >something to think about.
> > > 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future
as
> well
> > >as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't
think
> of
> > >it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems
instead
> > >of just throwing parts at an engine.
> > > 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad
thermostat
> > >without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and
> > >replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and
> dispose
> > >of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if
> > >possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to
help
> do
> > >that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy
> would
> > >have paid for itself.
> > >
> > > If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate
> screwing
> > >around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the
> majority's
> > >advice.
> > > And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you
> think a
> > >bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't
> argue
> > >with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your
> input.
> > >
> > >Steve
> > >2 '98 QBRE Bluebird
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12"
> > ><mrdonut12@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Steve,
> > > > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a
> > >professional
> > > > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master
> > > > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification,
> > > > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto
> repair
> > > > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed
> over
> > > > 34,000 cars.
> > > > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this
> thing
> > >is
> > > > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish
> > >baselines
> > > > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other
part
> of
> > >the
> > > > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning
> > > > thermostats in place.
> > > > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break.
> > > > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with
me
> and
> > > > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a
> > > > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more
> questions.
> > > > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or
do
> you
> > >want
> > > > to fix this thing?
> > > >
> > > > George Witt
> > > > 81 FC 35
> > > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Tom and George,
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp
> > >reading on
> > > > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at
around
> 200
> > > > > degrees also.
> > > > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my
thermostat
> is.
> > >I'm
> > > > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've
> > >never
> > > > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to
> find a
> > > > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer.
> > > > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper
coolant
> > >flow,
> > > > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a
> weak
> > >water
> > > > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I
> should be
> > > > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be
the
> > >same
> > > > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate
> it's
> > > > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible.
> > > > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has
always
> run,
> > > > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if
> the
> > > > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or
> closed?
> > >That
> > > > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally
overheat
> the
> > > > > engine?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not
> > >exhanging
> > > > > heat.
> > > > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference
> between
> > >the
> > > > > temp at
> > > > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing
more
> > >then
> > > > > likely
> > > > > > because the thermostat is not open.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > tom
> > > > > > 1982 FC35
> > > > > > Vernon Center,Ny
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Steve,
> > > > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the
current
> flow
> > > > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat.
> > > > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any
water
> > >flow.
> > > > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell
you
> that
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly?
> > > > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if
the
> > > > > thermostat
> > > > > > >is working properly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > George Witt
> > > > > > > 81 FC 35
> > > > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was
> > >getting
> > > > > some
> > > > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE
> Partybus. I
> > >shot
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which
is
> what
> > >my
> > > > > bus
> > > > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and
it
> > >read 130
> > > > > > > > degrees.
> > > > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my
gun
> > >several
> > > > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a
> > >drastic
> > > > > change
> > > > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about
15-
> 20
> > > > > degrees
> > > > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has
> green
> > >(safe)
> > > > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in
the
> red.
> > >My
> > > > > bird
> > > > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this
> > >normal?
> > > > > Seems a
> > > > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins
> as I
> > >have
> > > > > dealt
> > > > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My
> other
> > > > > Bluebird
> > > > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190,
although I
> > >haven't
> > > > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----------
> > > > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Visit your group
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
> "<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>http://groups.yah
> oo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
> > >
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[mrdonut12]

Bingo!! The thermostats should open wide and represent
no restriction to the flow of coolant. You have 2 bad ones.
Don't go to the parts store. They'll likely sell you
cheap junk. Go to a Cummins dealer and get factory parts.
Regarding the coolant, you can test what came out. It should
test -34 degrees, that's a 50/50 mix. I've found that coolant
testers lose accuracy with age. Calibrate it using a known mix
of 50% coolant and water to see if the tester is accurate.

George Witt
81 FC 35
Lincoln, Nebraska


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
wrote:
> So I took out my thermostats on the 8.3 Cummins. Two small ones,
> as you might have guessed. Looked a little rusty in the thermo
> housing by the way.
> Put them in water and heated them to boiling. Each one barely
> opened enough so you could see daylight from the bottom side.
> I took some needlenose and pulled the thermostat rod out. It's
> about an inch long. I'm assuming that most thermostats are the same
> so correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the thermostats be capable
> of opening up the full rod length at temp well over 200? Possibly up
> to an inch? Just wanted to be sure to get a second opinion. I'm open
> to any fact that may be evident, which includes a thermostat that
> could possibly be designed to open by the slightest of gaps.
> However if the thermostat is supposed to open wider, then that
> means that the thermostat opened partially at operating temp, thus
> the coolant flow would have been reduced, thus making it get hotter
> under demand.
> Don't worry, I'm going to the parts store tomorrow to get two
> new thermostats and I'm testing them as well and then replacing the
> old ones. Just wanted to double check and get a full understanding
> of each mechanism and function, of even a thermostat rod.
> Also, I'm going to test my antifreeze mixture in the engine. It
> looked a little thin. Do I need to do this after I run the engine so
> it's evenly mixed, or can I just test any of the antifreeze I
> drained out b/c it's already mixed properly?
> I would really like to flush the system due to the
> brackishness of it, but I'm really hesitant until I get an full
> manual of all the systems of this bus. Would anybody know where I
> could get a manual for this Bluebird QBRE? I've contacted National
> Bus Sales in Georgia (the local Bluebird dealer) and no luck yet.
>
> Thanks
> Steve
> 2 '98 QBRE Partybuses
>
>