Fuel economy

[Jon]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gardner Yeaw"
wrote:
>
> David,
> I agree that with a 2002 coach you are still eating the
> depreciation at a high rate, but I am looking at mid 80's coaches
> where the depreciation is far less. 20k for storage and maintenance
> is a pretty big number. I pay about $800 for storage and maybe 1 or
> 2k for maintenance. I can do most things myself.
>
> Actually I thought the steam engine would elicit more of a
> reaction.
>
> Gardner
> 78FC33
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
> wrote:
> >
> > Fuel is still a small part of the total cost of ownership.
> > For my coach I figure $20K per year depreciation, $10K
> > per year for storage and insurance, and another $10K
> > for annual maintenance. If I travel 10K miles at a cost of
> > .50 cents per mile that's an incremental $5K on top of my
> > $40K of fixed costs. Even if fuel doubles in price I'm only
> > shelling out $10K, still a fraction of my $40K of annual fixed
> > costs.
> >
> >
> > David Brady
> > '02 LXi, NC
> >
> > Don Bradner wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means
> > > over-estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know
> > > anything about your personal retirement financial situation.
> But...
> > >
> > > I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that
> > > conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following
> national
> > > averages for diesel:
> > >
> > > 2000 $1.49
> > > 2001 $1.40
> > > 2002 $1.32
> > > 2003 $1.51
> > > 2004 $1.81
> > > 2005 $2.40
> > > 2006 $2.71
> > > 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30)
> > >
> > > So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise
> more
> > > per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it?
> Maybe.
> > > Will it? Odds and history say no.
> > >
> > > Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K
> miles or
> > > more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is
> zero
> > > need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one
> of
> > > those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I
> arrived
> > > home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79
> and
> > > shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had
80
> > > gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per
gallon.
> > >
> > > I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices
> (average)
> > > in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when
> viewed
> > > while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15
> in
> > > October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is
> simpy a
> > > contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and
$2.71,
> > > respectively.
> > >
> > > At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely
> low end
> > > of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation
> moving
> > > from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what
> is
> > > likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so
it
> is
> > > not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently
> > > expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor
expect
> to be
> > > in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing
the
> > > country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons
> of fuel
> > > does not put me past the breaking point.
> > >
> > > Don Bradner
> > > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> > > Eureka, CA
> > >
> > > On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote:
> > >
> > > >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
> > > >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33
> gets
> > > >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We
> are
> > > >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few
after
> > > >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger
> coach
> > > >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
> > > >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two
> and a
> > > >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
> > > >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
> > > >that's just the first year of retirement.
> > > >
> > > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
> > > >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the
> way????
> > > >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
> > > >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam
> boiler to
> > > >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
> > > >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!
> > > >
> > > >Gardner
> > > >78FC33
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > , "Al" wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Ryan,
> > > >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
> > > >lines
> > > >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The
> biodiesel
> > > >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
> > > >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest
> assured,
> > > >it
> > > >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon
> tank in
> > > >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons.
Word
> of
> > > >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to
> lower
> > > >the
> > > >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
> > > >foam
> > > >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
> > > >tank
> > > >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to
> lower
> > > >and
> > > >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but
> now we
> > > >> could probably do one in a day.
> > > >>
> > > >> Al Johnson
> > > >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
> > > >> Mandeville, Louisiana
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > , "Ryan Wright"
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Jon,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only
for
> > > >the
> > > >> guys
> > > >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
> > > >prices up
> > > >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
> > > >going
> > > >> up
> > > >> > > further as I type.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
> > > >ridiculous.
> > > >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil
and
> am
> > > >going
> > > >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down
> under
> > > >> $1.00 a
> > > >> > gallon from now on.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far
> was
> > > >> 4.13mpg.
> > > >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the
> generator
> > > >> running
> > > >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I
> slowed
> > > >down
> > > >> to
> > > >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed
down
> and
> > > >am
> > > >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to
> 6mpg.
> > > >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's
> not
> > > >half
> > > >> > bad.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -Ryan
> > > >> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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Ok I guess there really not much to be done about this fuel issue but
I just found this and maybe I can adapt it to my old Wanderlodge
Barge (Rebel Bird). And since I live in Washington and not down in
the deep south I can just stop oft by the side of the road and get a
new batch of fuel when I need it. Hope you guys don't mind a little
humor-Jon

http://tinyurl.com/2v5ph9

Jon
78 Wanderlodge
Rebel Bird with lots of new ideas!

[David Brady]

Gardner,

I'm a big proponent of a steam engine hybrid for
a motorhome. BMW recently announced the availability
of an adjunct steam engine for their gasoline cars. By
recapturing exhaust gas heat via a steam boiler, storing
the steam in high pressure vessels, and using it to propel
the coach from a dead stop or up the next hill, bmw
increases engine efficiency by 15%. In our case, we'd also
have all the hot water we need! We do do a little
of this in that the Aqua-Hot uses engine coolant to heat
the hot water and the house. Now we need to capture
that 1000deg turbo gas energy and store it! I think
it's a great idea. See:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/

On the cost of ownership: I definitely have a higher rate
of depreciation, I keep my coach in a private garage, and
I do do almost all of my own mtce, but even then there's
big ticket items. This past year for example, I installed a
new A-H for $5000, then you need to budget for tires
and batteries, etc, etc. Even by doing the work ourselves,
it still ain't cheap.

David Brady
'02 LXi, NC


Gardner Yeaw wrote:
>
> David,
> I agree that with a 2002 coach you are still eating the
> depreciation at a high rate, but I am looking at mid 80's coaches
> where the depreciation is far less. 20k for storage and maintenance
> is a pretty big number. I pay about $800 for storage and maybe 1 or
> 2k for maintenance. I can do most things myself.
>
> Actually I thought the steam engine would elicit more of a
> reaction.
>
> Gardner
> 78FC33
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[willwander08]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady wrote:

I am very new to all this, learning and loving it most of the time. Still in the
shake down
phase, so a bit anxious.

Until we come up with an affordable (steam, hydrogen, fusion) augmenting or
alternative
power source, keeping to basics may help.

Perhaps this is common knowledge to many of you but, as a newbie, I found it
helpful.
There is a good deal of what appears to be FACTUAL information about
speed/weight/MPG
under a variety of conditions.

The following link at WOO is to the "CAT Performance Guide" for coaches
(the .pdf file may also be at this site but I did not see it).

http://wanderlodge.org/TechFiles/CATPerf...eGuide.pdf

Bill -1983 FC 35 SB

> Gardner,
>
> I'm a big proponent of a steam engine hybrid for
> a motorhome. BMW recently announced the availability
> of an adjunct steam engine for their gasoline cars. By
> recapturing exhaust gas heat via a steam boiler, storing
> the steam in high pressure vessels, and using it to propel
> the coach from a dead stop or up the next hill, bmw
> increases engine efficiency by 15%. In our case, we'd also
> have all the hot water we need! We do do a little
> of this in that the Aqua-Hot uses engine coolant to heat
> the hot water and the house. Now we need to capture
> that 1000deg turbo gas energy and store it! I think
> it's a great idea. See:
>
> http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/
>
> On the cost of ownership: I definitely have a higher rate
> of depreciation, I keep my coach in a private garage, and
> I do do almost all of my own mtce, but even then there's
> big ticket items. This past year for example, I installed a
> new A-H for $5000, then you need to budget for tires
> and batteries, etc, etc. Even by doing the work ourselves,
> it still ain't cheap.
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NC
>
>
> Gardner Yeaw wrote:
> >
> > David,
> > I agree that with a 2002 coach you are still eating the
> > depreciation at a high rate, but I am looking at mid 80's coaches
> > where the depreciation is far less. 20k for storage and maintenance
> > is a pretty big number. I pay about $800 for storage and maybe 1 or
> > 2k for maintenance. I can do most things myself.
> >
> > Actually I thought the steam engine would elicit more of a
> > reaction.
> >
> > Gardner
> > 78FC33
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[pattypape]

David,

Maybe someone would take 40 K per year and drive you around.

Bill, Sure love this 88 FC


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> Fuel is still a small part of the total cost of ownership.
> For my coach I figure $20K per year depreciation, $10K
> per year for storage and insurance, and another $10K
> for annual maintenance. If I travel 10K miles at a cost of
> .50 cents per mile that's an incremental $5K on top of my
> $40K of fixed costs. Even if fuel doubles in price I'm only
> shelling out $10K, still a fraction of my $40K of annual fixed
> costs.
>
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NC
>
> Don Bradner wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means
> > over-estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know
> > anything about your personal retirement financial situation.
But...
> >
> > I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that
> > conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following
national
> > averages for diesel:
> >
> > 2000 $1.49
> > 2001 $1.40
> > 2002 $1.32
> > 2003 $1.51
> > 2004 $1.81
> > 2005 $2.40
> > 2006 $2.71
> > 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30)
> >
> > So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise
more
> > per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it?
Maybe.
> > Will it? Odds and history say no.
> >
> > Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K
miles or
> > more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is
zero
> > need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one of
> > those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I
arrived
> > home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79 and
> > shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had 80
> > gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon.
> >
> > I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices
(average)
> > in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when viewed
> > while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15 in
> > October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is simpy
a
> > contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and $2.71,
> > respectively.
> >
> > At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low
end
> > of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation
moving
> > from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what
is
> > likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so it
is
> > not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently
> > expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor expect
to be
> > in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing the
> > country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons of
fuel
> > does not put me past the breaking point.
> >
> > Don Bradner
> > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> > Eureka, CA
> >
> > On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote:
> >
> > >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
> > >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets
> > >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We
are
> > >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after
> > >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger
coach
> > >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
> > >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and
a
> > >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
> > >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
> > >that's just the first year of retirement.
> > >
> > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
> > >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the
way????
> > >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
> > >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam
boiler to
> > >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
> > >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!
> > >
> > >Gardner
> > >78FC33
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > , "Al" wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ryan,
> > >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
> > >lines
> > >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The
biodiesel
> > >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
> > >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest
assured,
> > >it
> > >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank
in
> > >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word
of
> > >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower
> > >the
> > >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
> > >foam
> > >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
> > >tank
> > >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to
lower
> > >and
> > >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now
we
> > >> could probably do one in a day.
> > >>
> > >> Al Johnson
> > >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
> > >> Mandeville, Louisiana
> > >>
> > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > , "Ryan Wright"
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Jon,
> > >> >
> > >> > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for
> > >the
> > >> guys
> > >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
> > >prices up
> > >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
> > >going
> > >> up
> > >> > > further as I type.
> > >> >
> > >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
> > >ridiculous.
> > >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and
am
> > >going
> > >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down
under
> > >> $1.00 a
> > >> > gallon from now on.
> > >> >
> > >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was
> > >> 4.13mpg.
> > >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator
> > >> running
> > >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed
> > >down
> > >> to
> > >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down
and
> > >am
> > >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to
6mpg.
> > >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not
> > >half
> > >> > bad.
> > >> >
> > >> > -Ryan
> > >> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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[Ryan Wright]

On 11/10/07, Al wrote:
>
> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel lines
> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel
> will eat out the fuel lines from within.

I figured as much. Though, I didn't realize I'd have to drop the tank
to do this... I assumed the fuel pickup was in an accessible place and
I could just unhook the lines from the tank, replace 'em and hook the
new ones back up. Apparently that is not the case? I don't want to
think about dropping a 300 gallon tank. Doesn't sound like fun. I
wonder if I wouldn't be better off to add an auxiliary tank with
straight veggie oil, a pre-heater for it and a switch to flip between
the two.

That's the "big question" for me right now: Take the time and money to
process all of the fuel into bio, or retrofit the coach so it can run
straight veggie oil directly? I have waste veggie oil piling up in my
garage so I need to make a decision soon.

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

[Urnie-Medie]

I have been told that the LXi get around 8 mpg on Diesel.
I almost always pull a 2013 Ram 1500 - on the interstates traveling between 70-75 MPH when available. I am getting around 5 1/2 MPG. I would like to see if others are getting about the same. I know it is a large coach pulling a pick-up. When I first picked it up it was showing about 7 1/2 MPG

[rrueckwald]

I pull a Jeep Grand Cherokee, usually drive at 60mph, and get 7.2 mpg. By the way, not going over 60 reduces bug chip damage to almost zero, more relaxing and longer endurance, too.

[Urnie-Medie]

that could explain why on my last trip they charged me extra to get the bugs off. The problem is that my son is disabled and to keep working I need to take my wife and son with me. Usually I am on a schedule. Maybe I just need to plan more driving time. I know this would make my wife happy.

[davidbrady]

Hi Urnie,

I'd check your engine fan to see if it's running all the time. You should be getting 7 mpg; the engine fan can cost you up to 1 mpg. Dwindling fuel mileage is also an indication that your S60 may need to have an injector rack tuneup.

[patticake]

Try traveling 65, and see if that doesn't increase your mileage. Also, remember, you do have to stop that weight in a hurry sometime, and there is a difference in a car and the bus on stopping distances.