1985 PT-40 Radiator Question

[curlesw]

This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.

Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in front of
the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate radiator but
guess not, correct?
Thanks.

Wayne C.

[ronmarabito2002]

No, the radiator for the engine on a PT-40 is at the rear on the
drivers side. The fill is probably through a small door on the back
end of the coach above the engine access door.

By the way, please sign your posts with Name, Location and year &
Model coach.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
Wanderlodge Forum Moderator.


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw" wrote:
>
> This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
> coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
> required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.
>
> Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in front of
> the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate radiator but
> guess not, correct?
> Thanks.
>
> Wayne C.
>

[curlesw]

Ron, thank you very much for the response. Any hints or helpful ideas
in adding fluid. I lost a lot of fluid when the hose busted so I'm
not sure exactly how much too add. I read the manual to bleed the
heater system, seems easy enough, but it's my first time.

v/r
Wayne Curles
San Diego, CA
1985 PT-40


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
wrote:
>
> No, the radiator for the engine on a PT-40 is at the rear on the
> drivers side. The fill is probably through a small door on the back
> end of the coach above the engine access door.
>
> By the way, please sign your posts with Name, Location and year &
> Model coach.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> Wanderlodge Forum Moderator.
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw" wrote:
> >
> > This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
> > coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
> > required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.
> >
> > Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in front of
> > the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate radiator but
> > guess not, correct?
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Wayne C.
> >
>

[Jay Darst]

Wayne,
I replaced the thermostats in the 6V92 last year. That procedure
required draining much of the anti-freeze.

When it came time to refill, I used a 4 foot step ladder and a helper.

You'll need a funnel with a flexible hose, 6 gallons of Ethyl Glycol
Concentrate, 6 gallons of Distilled Water and a bottle of Fleetguard
DCA-4 additive and a 6-pak of test strips.(go to the local big truck
store for the additive and test strips). You may need more antifreeze
and water, pends on how much is been drained.

May want to go ahead and drain whats left and refresh the system at
this time. If you are mechanically inclined, and you want to do
diligence/preventive maintenance and replace the thermostats and
water pump, if you have no record of such update.

Using a coat hanger or other stiff wire, configure the wire to hold
the funnel upright so you can use both hands to pour the antifreeze.

I bought gallons of concentrated ethyl glycol and gallons of
distilled water. Added a gallon of antifreeze then a gallon of
distilled water, then a gallon of antifreeze then a gallon of
distilled water, etc until full up to the radiator cap.

Then, with the winter/summer switch set to winter and the thermostat
for the chassis heat set as high as it goes, take 'er out for a ride.
Make sure you reach operating temp. If the engine alarm sounds, you
can be reasonably sure you'll need to add coolant when you get back.

When you get back home, allow cool down time. Pull the radiator cap
and stick a test strip in there and read it. You may need to and see
what your level looks like. Probably will need to add coolant.

Repeat the antifreeze/distilled water/take it for a drive/heat it
up/return for cool down and recheck level until you do not need to
add coolant anymore.

You're done.

Jay Darst
85PT40 6V92 with updated coolant/thermostats/water pump/hoses/clamps
00 Prevost Royale H345 FOR SALE Buy it Now $329k
91 Prevost Royale 40XL FOR SALE Buy it Now $129k
HPRCoach.com
HPRCars.com
Springfield/Sullivan, IL

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw"
wrote:
>
> Ron, thank you very much for the response. Any hints or helpful
ideas
> in adding fluid. I lost a lot of fluid when the hose busted so I'm
> not sure exactly how much too add. I read the manual to bleed the
> heater system, seems easy enough, but it's my first time.
>
> v/r
> Wayne Curles
> San Diego, CA
> 1985 PT-40
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> wrote:
> >
> > No, the radiator for the engine on a PT-40 is at the rear on the
> > drivers side. The fill is probably through a small door on the
back
> > end of the coach above the engine access door.
> >
> > By the way, please sign your posts with Name, Location and year &
> > Model coach.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > Wanderlodge Forum Moderator.
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw"
wrote:
> > >
> > > This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
> > > coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
> > > required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.
> > >
> > > Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in
front of
> > > the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate
radiator but
> > > guess not, correct?
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Wayne C.
> > >
> >
>

[Pete Masterson]

The engine radiator in a PT is on the left (street) side at the rear
of the coach. From the inside, you should be able to see a fan (with
a shroud around it) that pulls air through the radiator. The radiator
near the generator is for the generator only.

The fill for the radiator is in the center on the rear above the
engine compartment cover. It feeds into a surge tank. Usually there's
a small, round sight glass. The water level (minimum) is to the
center of the sight glass. (Too full will cause the coolant to
overflow when it heats up.)

Be sure you're using a coolant that's appropriate to the engine.
Check the Detroit Diesel recommendation for your engine.

It occurs to me that the hose -might- have been for the generator
rather than the engine. Where, exactly, was the hose you replaced?
(Of course, you should check the water level in the generator as
well. That's accomplished by removing the radiator cap and looking in.)

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
aeonix1@...



On Dec 31, 2007, at 5:34 PM, curlesw wrote:

> This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
> coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
> required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.
>
> Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in front of
> the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate radiator but
> guess not, correct?
> Thanks.
>
> Wayne C.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[curlesw]

Thanks Jay, very helpful.

Did you have to "bleed" the heater system as noted in the manual?
Also, do you turn all on all three heater chassis or will one suffice?

v/r
Wayne C.
San Diego, CA
1985 PT-40


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Darst"
wrote:
>
> Wayne,
> I replaced the thermostats in the 6V92 last year. That procedure
> required draining much of the anti-freeze.
>
> When it came time to refill, I used a 4 foot step ladder and a
helper.
>
> You'll need a funnel with a flexible hose, 6 gallons of Ethyl
Glycol
> Concentrate, 6 gallons of Distilled Water and a bottle of
Fleetguard
> DCA-4 additive and a 6-pak of test strips.(go to the local big
truck
> store for the additive and test strips). You may need more
antifreeze
> and water, pends on how much is been drained.
>
> May want to go ahead and drain whats left and refresh the system at
> this time. If you are mechanically inclined, and you want to do
> diligence/preventive maintenance and replace the thermostats and
> water pump, if you have no record of such update.
>
> Using a coat hanger or other stiff wire, configure the wire to hold
> the funnel upright so you can use both hands to pour the antifreeze.
>
> I bought gallons of concentrated ethyl glycol and gallons of
> distilled water. Added a gallon of antifreeze then a gallon of
> distilled water, then a gallon of antifreeze then a gallon of
> distilled water, etc until full up to the radiator cap.
>
> Then, with the winter/summer switch set to winter and the
thermostat
> for the chassis heat set as high as it goes, take 'er out for a
ride.
> Make sure you reach operating temp. If the engine alarm sounds, you
> can be reasonably sure you'll need to add coolant when you get back.
>
> When you get back home, allow cool down time. Pull the radiator cap
> and stick a test strip in there and read it. You may need to and
see
> what your level looks like. Probably will need to add coolant.
>
> Repeat the antifreeze/distilled water/take it for a drive/heat it
> up/return for cool down and recheck level until you do not need to
> add coolant anymore.
>
> You're done.
>
> Jay Darst
> 85PT40 6V92 with updated coolant/thermostats/water pump/hoses/clamps
> 00 Prevost Royale H345 FOR SALE Buy it Now $329k
> 91 Prevost Royale 40XL FOR SALE Buy it Now $129k
> HPRCoach.com
> HPRCars.com
> Springfield/Sullivan, IL
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw"
> wrote:
> >
> > Ron, thank you very much for the response. Any hints or helpful
> ideas
> > in adding fluid. I lost a lot of fluid when the hose busted so
I'm
> > not sure exactly how much too add. I read the manual to bleed the
> > heater system, seems easy enough, but it's my first time.
> >
> > v/r
> > Wayne Curles
> > San Diego, CA
> > 1985 PT-40
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > No, the radiator for the engine on a PT-40 is at the rear on the
> > > drivers side. The fill is probably through a small door on the
> back
> > > end of the coach above the engine access door.
> > >
> > > By the way, please sign your posts with Name, Location and year
&
> > > Model coach.
> > >
> > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > > Wanderlodge Forum Moderator.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw"
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to
add
> > > > coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose
that
> > > > required replacement and now need to add coolant to the
system.
> > > >
> > > > Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in
> front of
> > > > the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate
> radiator but
> > > > guess not, correct?
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > Wayne C.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[curlesw]

Thanks Pete.

The hose ran from the pump into the engine block....fairly easy to
reach. It had a 2.5" rip in it...didn't expect such a huge failure.
Sure, maybe a small hole from a 21 year old hose, but wow! I lost a
lot of fluid very quickly. I'm glad the engine alarm worked since it
was at night and I could not see all the smoke pouring out the back.

I did not noticed the surge tank and site glass...will have to look
for that when I add coolant back into the system to ensure I do not
overflow.

I read the BB manual and it said to use an antifreeze which contains
ethylene glycol. When I get back home I'll have a complete flush of
all fluids anyway, it's time for a complete refresh...just need to
get home by Sunday, which is 2,000 miles away!

v/r
Wayne C.
San Deigo, CA
1985 PT-40


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> The engine radiator in a PT is on the left (street) side at the
rear
> of the coach. From the inside, you should be able to see a fan
(with
> a shroud around it) that pulls air through the radiator. The
radiator
> near the generator is for the generator only.
>
> The fill for the radiator is in the center on the rear above the
> engine compartment cover. It feeds into a surge tank. Usually
there's
> a small, round sight glass. The water level (minimum) is to the
> center of the sight glass. (Too full will cause the coolant to
> overflow when it heats up.)
>
> Be sure you're using a coolant that's appropriate to the engine.
> Check the Detroit Diesel recommendation for your engine.
>
> It occurs to me that the hose -might- have been for the generator
> rather than the engine. Where, exactly, was the hose you replaced?
> (Of course, you should check the water level in the generator as
> well. That's accomplished by removing the radiator cap and looking
in.)
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2007, at 5:34 PM, curlesw wrote:
>
> > This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
> > coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
> > required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.
> >
> > Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in front
of
> > the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate radiator
but
> > guess not, correct?
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Wayne C.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Pete Masterson]

The surge tank on the 8v92 may not have the sight glass. I looked at
some photos of older PT-'birds on the Vintage Birds web site, and I
could see (what I assume was) the surge tank just left of center at
the top of the engine compartment (with the cover raised). I didn't
see the sight glass, so I assume that there's an indicator tab just
inside the fill cap (as on many vehicles). (Overfilling the radiator
isn't a serious problem as excess coolant will simply exit through
the overflow tube -- but it does waste a bit of coolant.)

A tear, even quite small, can allow a _lot_ of coolant to escape,
since it's under several pounds of pressure in the system.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
aeonix1@...



On Jan 1, 2008, at 10:43 AM, curlesw wrote:

> Thanks Pete.
>
> The hose ran from the pump into the engine block....fairly easy to
> reach. It had a 2.5" rip in it...didn't expect such a huge failure.
> Sure, maybe a small hole from a 21 year old hose, but wow! I lost a
> lot of fluid very quickly. I'm glad the engine alarm worked since it
> was at night and I could not see all the smoke pouring out the back.
>
> I did not noticed the surge tank and site glass...will have to look
> for that when I add coolant back into the system to ensure I do not
> overflow.
>
> I read the BB manual and it said to use an antifreeze which contains
> ethylene glycol. When I get back home I'll have a complete flush of
> all fluids anyway, it's time for a complete refresh...just need to
> get home by Sunday, which is 2,000 miles away!
>
> v/r
> Wayne C.
> San Deigo, CA
> 1985 PT-40
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
> wrote:
>>
>> The engine radiator in a PT is on the left (street) side at the
> rear
>> of the coach. From the inside, you should be able to see a fan
> (with
>> a shroud around it) that pulls air through the radiator. The
> radiator
>> near the generator is for the generator only.
>>
>> The fill for the radiator is in the center on the rear above the
>> engine compartment cover. It feeds into a surge tank. Usually
> there's
>> a small, round sight glass. The water level (minimum) is to the
>> center of the sight glass. (Too full will cause the coolant to
>> overflow when it heats up.)
>>
>> Be sure you're using a coolant that's appropriate to the engine.
>> Check the Detroit Diesel recommendation for your engine.
>>
>> It occurs to me that the hose -might- have been for the generator
>> rather than the engine. Where, exactly, was the hose you replaced?
>> (Of course, you should check the water level in the generator as
>> well. That's accomplished by removing the radiator cap and looking
> in.)
>>
>> Pete Masterson
>> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
>> El Sobrante CA
>> aeonix1@...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 31, 2007, at 5:34 PM, curlesw wrote:
>>
>>> This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
>>> coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
>>> required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.
>>>
>>> Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in front
> of
>>> the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate radiator
> but
>>> guess not, correct?
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Wayne C.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jay Darst]

Wayne,

< suffice?>>

By setting the winter/summer switch to winter, the anti freeze is
circulated to all the heaters.

The on/off switch at each unit enables the fan that blows air thru
the heater core. The Hi/Low switch controls the fan speed. Then the
thermostat on the wall labeled "Chasis Heat" controls all the fans.



<

Nope, never did any bleeding of the heater system.


Jay Darst
85PT40DD6V92MTB654CR



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw"
wrote:
>
> Thanks Jay, very helpful.
>
> Did you have to "bleed" the heater system as noted in the manual?
> Also, do you turn all on all three heater chassis or will one
suffice?
>
> v/r
> Wayne C.
> San Diego, CA
> 1985 PT-40
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Darst"
> wrote:
> >
> > Wayne,
> > I replaced the thermostats in the 6V92 last year. That procedure
> > required draining much of the anti-freeze.
> >
> > When it came time to refill, I used a 4 foot step ladder and a
> helper.
> >
> > You'll need a funnel with a flexible hose, 6 gallons of Ethyl
> Glycol
> > Concentrate, 6 gallons of Distilled Water and a bottle of
> Fleetguard
> > DCA-4 additive and a 6-pak of test strips.(go to the local big
> truck
> > store for the additive and test strips). You may need more
> antifreeze
> > and water, pends on how much is been drained.
> >
> > May want to go ahead and drain whats left and refresh the system
at
> > this time. If you are mechanically inclined, and you want to do
> > diligence/preventive maintenance and replace the thermostats and
> > water pump, if you have no record of such update.
> >
> > Using a coat hanger or other stiff wire, configure the wire to
hold
> > the funnel upright so you can use both hands to pour the
antifreeze.
> >
> > I bought gallons of concentrated ethyl glycol and gallons of
> > distilled water. Added a gallon of antifreeze then a gallon of
> > distilled water, then a gallon of antifreeze then a gallon of
> > distilled water, etc until full up to the radiator cap.
> >
> > Then, with the winter/summer switch set to winter and the
> thermostat
> > for the chassis heat set as high as it goes, take 'er out for a
> ride.
> > Make sure you reach operating temp. If the engine alarm sounds,
you
> > can be reasonably sure you'll need to add coolant when you get
back.
> >
> > When you get back home, allow cool down time. Pull the radiator
cap
> > and stick a test strip in there and read it. You may need to and
> see
> > what your level looks like. Probably will need to add coolant.
> >
> > Repeat the antifreeze/distilled water/take it for a drive/heat it
> > up/return for cool down and recheck level until you do not need
to
> > add coolant anymore.
> >
> > You're done.
> >
> > Jay Darst
> > 85PT40 6V92 with updated coolant/thermostats/water
pump/hoses/clamps
> > 00 Prevost Royale H345 FOR SALE Buy it Now $329k
> > 91 Prevost Royale 40XL FOR SALE Buy it Now $129k
> > HPRCoach.com
> > HPRCars.com
> > Springfield/Sullivan, IL
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ron, thank you very much for the response. Any hints or
helpful
> > ideas
> > > in adding fluid. I lost a lot of fluid when the hose busted so
> I'm
> > > not sure exactly how much too add. I read the manual to bleed
the
> > > heater system, seems easy enough, but it's my first time.
> > >
> > > v/r
> > > Wayne Curles
> > > San Diego, CA
> > > 1985 PT-40
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, the radiator for the engine on a PT-40 is at the rear on
the
> > > > drivers side. The fill is probably through a small door on
the
> > back
> > > > end of the coach above the engine access door.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, please sign your posts with Name, Location and
year
> &
> > > > Model coach.
> > > >
> > > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > > > Wanderlodge Forum Moderator.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "curlesw"
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to
> add
> > > > > coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose
> that
> > > > > required replacement and now need to add coolant to the
> system.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in
> > front of
> > > > > the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate
> > radiator but
> > > > > guess not, correct?
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wayne C.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Scott Forman]

My '86 8v92 PT38 does have a sight glass. Surge tank is at top left
(street side) of engine compartment with rear cover raised.

Scott Forman
86 PT38
Memphis

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> The surge tank on the 8v92 may not have the sight glass. I looked
at
> some photos of older PT-'birds on the Vintage Birds web site, and
I
> could see (what I assume was) the surge tank just left of center
at
> the top of the engine compartment (with the cover raised). I
didn't
> see the sight glass, so I assume that there's an indicator tab
just
> inside the fill cap (as on many vehicles). (Overfilling the
radiator
> isn't a serious problem as excess coolant will simply exit through
> the overflow tube -- but it does waste a bit of coolant.)
>
> A tear, even quite small, can allow a _lot_ of coolant to escape,
> since it's under several pounds of pressure in the system.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jan 1, 2008, at 10:43 AM, curlesw wrote:
>
> > Thanks Pete.
> >
> > The hose ran from the pump into the engine block....fairly easy to
> > reach. It had a 2.5" rip in it...didn't expect such a huge
failure.
> > Sure, maybe a small hole from a 21 year old hose, but wow! I
lost a
> > lot of fluid very quickly. I'm glad the engine alarm worked
since it
> > was at night and I could not see all the smoke pouring out the
back.
> >
> > I did not noticed the surge tank and site glass...will have to
look
> > for that when I add coolant back into the system to ensure I do
not
> > overflow.
> >
> > I read the BB manual and it said to use an antifreeze which
contains
> > ethylene glycol. When I get back home I'll have a complete flush
of
> > all fluids anyway, it's time for a complete refresh...just need to
> > get home by Sunday, which is 2,000 miles away!
> >
> > v/r
> > Wayne C.
> > San Deigo, CA
> > 1985 PT-40
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> The engine radiator in a PT is on the left (street) side at the
> > rear
> >> of the coach. From the inside, you should be able to see a fan
> > (with
> >> a shroud around it) that pulls air through the radiator. The
> > radiator
> >> near the generator is for the generator only.
> >>
> >> The fill for the radiator is in the center on the rear above the
> >> engine compartment cover. It feeds into a surge tank. Usually
> > there's
> >> a small, round sight glass. The water level (minimum) is to the
> >> center of the sight glass. (Too full will cause the coolant to
> >> overflow when it heats up.)
> >>
> >> Be sure you're using a coolant that's appropriate to the engine.
> >> Check the Detroit Diesel recommendation for your engine.
> >>
> >> It occurs to me that the hose -might- have been for the generator
> >> rather than the engine. Where, exactly, was the hose you
replaced?
> >> (Of course, you should check the water level in the generator as
> >> well. That's accomplished by removing the radiator cap and
looking
> > in.)
> >>
> >> Pete Masterson
> >> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> >> El Sobrante CA
> >> aeonix1@
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 31, 2007, at 5:34 PM, curlesw wrote:
> >>
> >>> This seems like a silly question, but here goes. I need to add
> >>> coolant and read the instructions. I had a leak in a hose that
> >>> required replacement and now need to add coolant to the system.
> >>>
> >>> Does the engine use the same radiator as the one located in
front
> > of
> >>> the generator? I just assumed there would be a separate
radiator
> > but
> >>> guess not, correct?
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> Wayne C.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>