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Air to Turbo
06-23-2008, 09:07
Post: #11
Air to Turbo
Wow,this will take a while to absorb LOL.
Thanks David
Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
Terrace, B.C. Canada


----- Original Message ----
From: David Brady
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:26:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Air to Turbo




Bill,

I'm by no means an expert in this area, like that
ever stopped me before , so I yanked these little
gems off the web. Based on the Ideal Gas Equation
(PV=nRT) and this nifty engine volumetric flow rate
equation, we have the following mass air flow calculation
for your engine running at full tilt:



volume of air (cu ft/min) = engine rpm x engine cid
(1728 x 2)



Mass air flow(lbs/min) = P(psia) x V(cu.ft./min) x 29
(10.73 x T(deg R))



For your motor at the exit of the turbo compressor:
CID = 636 cu.in. (engine displacement)
RPM = 2200 (engine rpm at max power)
P = 14.7 + 20 (max turbo boost pressure) = 34.7 psia
V = 405 cu ft/min, (engine volume rate of air)
T = 250 degF + 460 = 710 deg R (air temp at turbo output)
mass air flow(lbs/min) = 53.5 lb/min

Based on squeezing 53.5 lb/min of air thru your intake
plenum, which I'm modeling as a pipe with bends, at
standard air pressure 14.7psi and temp
68degF, I found
this nifty pipe airflow calculator:

http://www.pipeflow calculations. com/airflow/ index.htm

Plugging in the mass air flow, pipe diameter and length,
14.7psi ambient air pressure, and 70 degF, I get the
following pressure drops across the pipe:



Diameter Length Pressure Drop across pipe
3" 72" 0.67 psi
4" 72" 0.19 psi
5" 72" 0.075 psi
6" 72" 0.035 psi
7" 72" 0.019 psi



Based on this I would say that your 5" air filter intake
is adequate and that your 40 sq.in. ram air intake is also
adequate, as long as the plenum length from ram intake to
turbo is no longer than 72", I'd restore the system to
original. If your intake is longer than 72" we'll have to
redo the calculation. Most likely the air filter element
is the largest restrictor in the system.



As far as turbulence in the 5" dia air intake plenum, well
the air velocity there is 87 ft/s, so it does appear that
turbulence is a concern, but the above referenced caculator
takes that into account via it's roughness index (Kr)
which I set to .00177 inch for steel pipe. There's another
constant in the above calculator, (Ksi) the minor loss
coefficient. This I set to one which accounts for bends in
your intake plenum: 3 long radius flanged 45's and 2 long
radius flanged 90 deg's. So you can see, modeling the pipe
is a real pain. The pressure drops across the pipe are
quite sensitive to this parameter. Hope this helps



Please someone, crap detect this. :-)



David Brady
'02 LXi, NC




Gregory OConnor wrote:


Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air causes
restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air
turbulance?? ? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that
collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and
reduced the black smoke immediatly?? ??? I learned that there was no
restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its
self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than
smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water
restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling
silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics? ?? But
turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has
density lost??

I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I
understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.???? ?

Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to
convince you to look for
another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName' s kids.
it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence.

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", Wilhelmus Schreurs
wrote:
>
>
> When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air
cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe
this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does
not appear to get enough air from the outside.
> Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2
inches = 40 sq in.
> Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches,
this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter
should be
increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)
> Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??
> What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it
is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it
should be getting the colder air from outside?
> Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> Terrace, B.C. Canada
>
>
>
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required.
Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
http://ca.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
>


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1500 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 4:58 PM



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Quote this message in a reply
06-23-2008, 09:26
Post: #12
Air to Turbo

Bill,



I'm by no means an expert in this area, like that

ever stopped me before , so I yanked these little

gems off the web. Based on the Ideal Gas Equation

(PV=nRT) and this nifty engine volumetric flow rate

equation, we have the following mass air flow calculation

for your engine running at full tilt:




volume of air (cu ft/min) = engine rpm x engine cid

(1728 x 2)



Mass air flow(lbs/min) = P(psia) x V(cu.ft./min) x 29

(10.73 x T(deg R))



For your motor at the exit of the turbo compressor:

CID = 636 cu.in. (engine displacement)

RPM = 2200 (engine rpm at max power)

P = 14.7 + 20 (max turbo boost pressure) = 34.7 psia

V = 405 cu ft/min, (engine volume rate of air)

T = 250 degF + 460 = 710 deg R (air temp at turbo output)

mass air flow(lbs/min) = 53.5 lb/min

Based on squeezing 53.5 lb/min of air thru your intake

plenum, which I'm modeling as a pipe with bends, at

standard air pressure 14.7psi and temp
68degF, I found

this nifty pipe airflow calculator:



http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/airflow/index.htm



Plugging in the mass air flow, pipe diameter and length,

14.7psi ambient air pressure, and 70 degF, I get the

following pressure drops across the pipe:




Diameter Length Pressure Drop across pipe

3" 72" 0.67 psi

4" 72" 0.19 psi

5" 72" 0.075 psi

6" 72" 0.035 psi

7" 72" 0.019 psi



Based on this I would say that your 5" air filter intake

is adequate and that your 40 sq.in. ram air intake is also

adequate, as long as the plenum length from ram intake to

turbo is no longer than 72", I'd restore the system to

original. If your intake is longer than 72" we'll have to

redo the calculation. Most likely the air filter element

is the largest restrictor in the system.



As far as turbulence in the 5" dia air intake plenum, well

the air velocity there is 87 ft/s, so it does appear that

turbulence is a concern, but the above referenced caculator

takes that into account via it's roughness index (Kr)

which I set to .00177 inch for steel pipe. There's another

constant in the above calculator, (Ksi) the minor loss

coefficient. This I set to one which accounts for bends in

your intake plenum: 3 long radius flanged 45's and 2 long

radius flanged 90 deg's. So you can see, modeling the pipe

is a real pain. The pressure drops across the pipe are

quite sensitive to this parameter. Hope this helps



Please someone, crap detect this. :-)



David Brady

'02 LXi, NC







Gregory OConnor wrote:


Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air
causes

restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air

turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that

collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and

reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was
no

restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its

self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than

smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water

restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling

silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics??? But


turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has

density lost??



I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I

understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.?????



Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for

another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids.


it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence.



GregoryO'Connor

94ptRomolandCa



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
Wilhelmus Schreurs

...> wrote:

>

>

> When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air

cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe

this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does

not appear to get enough air from the outside.

> Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2

inches = 40 sq in.

> Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches,

this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter

should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)

> Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??

> What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it


is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it

should be getting the colder air from outside?

> Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated.

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"

> Terrace, B.C. Canada

>

>

>

__________________________________________________________

> Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required.

Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at

http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php

>





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1500 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 4:58 PM



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1500 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 4:58
PM
Quote this message in a reply
06-24-2008, 05:08
Post: #13
Air to Turbo
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs


Consider running the air inlet over the top of the engine. My
solution was to make an air inlet grill under the windshield. the
side inlet deal was too restrictive. Transition from square to round
is part of the challenge, but the end result was pretty good.
With the addition of a charge air cooler and a larger radiator my
temps were about as high as one would want on the hard grades when
we travled to Idaho over I-90 and US-12. Turned the spray bar on a
couple of times and consumed about 4 gallons of distilled water with
20% windsheild washer solvent. Pyro went to 1000, water to 200 trans
to 220 @ the top fitting, engine oil 230.
I have resolved to minimize the use of the toad trailer, 11,200 #s
slows the bird down too much on the grades.












wrote:
>
> Wow, this will take a while to absorb LOL.
> Thanks David
> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> Terrace, B.C. Canada
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Brady
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:26:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Air to Turbo
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I'm by no means an expert in this area, like that
> ever stopped me before , so I yanked these little
> gems off the web. Based on the Ideal Gas Equation
> (PV=nRT) and this nifty engine volumetric flow rate
> equation, we have the following mass air flow calculation
> for your engine running at full tilt:
>
> volume of air (cu ft/min) = engine rpm x engine cid
>                                 (1728 x 2)
> Mass air flow(lbs/min) = P(psia) x V(cu.ft./min) x 29
>                  (10.73 x T(deg R))
>
> For your motor at the exit of the turbo compressor:
> CID = 636 cu.in. (engine displacement)
> RPM = 2200 (engine rpm at max power)
> P = 14.7 + 20 (max turbo boost pressure) = 34.7 psia
> V = 405 cu ft/min, (engine volume rate of air)
> T = 250 degF + 460 = 710 deg R (air temp at turbo output)
> mass air flow(lbs/min) = 53.5 lb/min
> Based on squeezing 53.5 lb/min of air thru your intake
> plenum, which I'm modeling as a pipe with bends, at
> standard air pressure 14.7psi and temp 68degF, I found
> this nifty pipe airflow calculator:
>
> http://www.pipeflow calculations. com/airflow/ index.htm
>
> Plugging in the mass air flow, pipe diameter and length,
> 14.7psi ambient air pressure, and 70 degF, I get the
> following pressure drops across the pipe:
>
> Diameter    Length         Pressure Drop across pipe
> 3"            72"          0.67 psi
> 4"            72"          0.19 psi
> 5"            72"          0.075 psi
> 6"            72"          0.035 psi
> 7"            72"          0.019 psi
>
> Based on this I would say that your 5" air filter intake
> is adequate and that your 40 sq.in. ram air intake is also
> adequate, as long as the plenum length from ram intake to
> turbo is no longer than 72", I'd restore the system to
> original. If your intake is longer than 72" we'll have to
> redo the calculation. Most likely the air filter element
> is the largest restrictor in the system.
>
> As far as turbulence in the 5" dia air intake plenum, well
> the air velocity there is 87 ft/s, so it does appear that
> turbulence is a concern, but the above referenced caculator
> takes that into account via it's roughness index (Kr)
> which I set to .00177 inch for steel pipe. There's another
> constant in the above calculator, (Ksi) the minor loss
> coefficient. This I set to one which accounts for bends in
> your intake plenum: 3 long radius flanged 45's and 2 long
> radius flanged 90 deg's. So you can see, modeling the pipe
> is a real pain. The pressure drops across the pipe are
> quite sensitive to this parameter. Hope this helps
>
> Please someone, crap detect this. :-)
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NC
>
>
> Gregory OConnor wrote:
> Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air
causes
> restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air
> turbulance?? ? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that
> collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and
> reduced the black smoke immediatly?? ??? I learned that there was
no
> restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its
> self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner
than
> smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water
> restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling
> silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics? ??
But
> turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has
> density lost??
>
> I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I
> understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.???? ?
>
> Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for
> another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName' s
kids.
> it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence.
>
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, Wilhelmus Schreurs
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air
> cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I
believe
> this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does
> not appear to get enough air from the outside.
> > Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2
> inches = 40 sq in.
> > Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square
inches,
> this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the
filter
> should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches)
> > Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well??
> > What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now
it
> is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe
it
> should be getting the colder air from outside?
> > Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated.
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> > Terrace, B.C. Canada
> >
> >
> >
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > Connect with friends from any web browser - no download
required.
> Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
> http://ca.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1500 - Release Date:
6/12/2008 4:58 PM
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and
bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
> http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
>
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