Tie Rods - 380 and 450

[dentmac]

Hi,

The front axles on the 380 and the 450 are the same.

The tie rods for the 450 were modified to allow GAWR to go to 17,000
(that was the only mod to the axle)

It would be nice to have the part number for the old and the modified tie rod.

There is a physical difference so some photos should show the difference and would be useful.

Any owner of a 380 may be wise to get the modified version if they are to be replaced and 450 owners need to know as there will be the
"Old "ones still around.

The "Old" tie rod is in all the 380 (no problem as it is OK for 16,000 # rating)

All the 450's SHOULD have the new ones.

Please take some pictures the tie rods in BOTH 380's and 450's and post- (turn wheel hard over- easy shot of both ends with phone )

Randy has some new ones available-- and ball joints.
__________________
Ross MacKillop
2006 450 LXi
South Bruce Peninsula, Ontario.

[dentmac]

Here is an curious recall for the Bluebird 4500 Express Bus.
These would probably have the same front axle as the 380 and 450 rated at 16000.
So - are these tierods bad at 16,000? Are the new ones the same as the redesign for the 450?
Bluebird express recall

2008-06-10 Vehicle
Recall Summary: BLUE BIRD IS RECALLING 33 MY 2006-2007 EXPRESS 4500 MOTOR COACHES EQUIPPED WITH MAC TIE ROD ASSEMBLIES THAT DID NOT MEET DESIGN SPECIFICATION. AS A RESULT, THE LEFT AND/OR RIGHT TIE ROD ASSEMBLY MAY FRACTURE AT HIGH MILEAGE.
Hazard: A FRACTURE TIE ROD MAY SEPARATE WITHOUT PRIOR WARNING CAUSING UNEXPECTED LOSS OF VEHICLE STEERING. IN SOME MANEUVERS THIS COULD CAUSE A CRASH.
Remedy: DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE LEFT AND RIGHT HAND TIE ROD ASSEMBLIES WITH A REDESIGNED TIE ROD ASSEMBLY FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON JULY 11, 2008. OWNERS MAY CONTACT BLUE BIRD AT 478-822-2242.
Additional Info: BLUE BIRD RECALL NO. R08ND.CUSTOMERS MAY ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV.
NHTSA Source: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/rec...ersion=YES

[pgchin]

Whether I-beam or IFS, tie rods are the "weakest" chain in the link. The date of this coincides with the m450 recall or close. My SWAG, since I have no inter company insight, is the legal dept made them add the 4500's as a CYA deal, but that's just my SWAG based on how production and development exposure works.

Good point though and to bring up. It matches what I said in the other thread about changing tie rods ends around 10 years on i-beams or sooner if they fail the "out of spec" ball and socket test. Since the m380, m450 designs and product are getting close to 10 years old anyway, yeah I would go ahead and change them now as a safety precaution if I owned one and got the chance, but that is just me! You mileage and opinion may vary! The consequences could get interesting if one fails, and lead to some exiting adventures, whether an I-beam or IFS!

PS One of the biggest reasons tie rods fail, among others, is people like to do "dry turns"....... which is very stressful on the tie rod ends and causes premature failure. So if you want your tie rod ends to take less stress and last longer, DO NOT turn the steering wheel UNLESS you are rolling forward or back! This may require a bit of relearning on how to park and set up your bus for a parking spot, but no big deal. Given how city buses ALWAYS do dry turns from the pickup curb, I suspect the recall was added!

[davidbrady]

Good advice Pete. Along with putting stress on the tie rods, dry turning puts unnecessary stress on all the other steering components too, plus it flat spots the tires. It's always good practice to be rolling, even if only slightly, as you turn the steering to full lock. Keep those tires rolling! ;-)

[timetravelers]

Would a change of tie rods on a 14,600 axle provide any upgrade?

[pgchin]

(06-11-2013 15:53)timetravelers Wrote:  Would a change of tie rods on a 14,600 axle provide any upgrade?

Morey,
The mfg engineers I called once about my 14.6 axle told me they were pretty stout. Rims and tires usually are the "limiting factor" however if you are running 9" rims with 315's you have "capacity". IF that is a case, THEN I suggest you call the Mfg with your axle serial # and ask them what components you have to change to carry more weight. STOCK tie rods will not get you more, But they may suggest other components including upgraded tie rods.

[cmillsap]

It should be noted here that the IFS used on the 380 & 450 is no longer being made. I don't know if components such as tie rods are still obtainable, particularly if you may need an upgraded tie rod from the original. I do know that the ball joints were nowhere to be found until a few of the M380 & M450 owners comvinced Meritor to make some more. They said they would but I don't know if they ever did or not.

If I were still a M380 owner, I would certainly be checking to see if all the IFS components are still available.

[dentmac]

Good Morning,
Someone with a 450 or 380 will soon need tie rods.

For the 450, you need the "New" version
You "SHOULD" have those presently - by Bluebird records 4 units were not completely altered - one was exempted from the recall.
If you have a 380 and want/have a 16,000 axle, you should have the new design.
The present tie rods fail with high mileage at 16,000.
The method used to upgrade (read "restate") the 450 to 17,000 was to change the tierods and reduce the testing criteria by 1/2 as the logic is that a motorhome does not need the life expectancy of the transit bus.

Either we need the product numbers of the "new" vs "Old" tierods or
simply pictures as they should be visually different.
The 380's have the "Old" The 450s "New"
Pictures please. Perhaps David can organise for us.
Thank you,
Ross

(06-13-2013 22:56)cmillsap Wrote:  It should be noted here that the IFS used on the 380 & 450 is no longer being made. I don't know if components such as tie rods are still obtainable, particularly if you may need an upgraded tie rod from the original. I do know that the ball joints were nowhere to be found until a few of the M380 & M450 owners comvinced Meritor to make some more. They said they would but I don't know if they ever did or not.

If I were still a M380 owner, I would certainly be checking to see if all the IFS components are still available.

[davidbrady]

Thanks Ross,

I'm all in favor of doing whatever we can to keep these magnificent birds (M380's and M450's) on the road as safely as possible.

Please folks let's document what we can in regard to these tie-rod ends. We want owners to be aware of what tie-rod end they're running, the visual differences between the 'new' and 'old', and the part numbers. This is especially important if you're counting on a 16000 lb steer axle rating.

Aim your phone camera's in the vicinity of the tie rod and snap a photo. If you turn the steering wheel full lock I'm certain we can build a collection of worthy photos. For those who are especially enterprising a diameter measurement of the rod using a digital caliper would be great. I'll do what I can to tabulate and file here on WaGu whatever data we collect. Thanks!

[Hisham Amaral]

(06-21-2013 15:56)davidmbrady Wrote:  Thanks Ross,

I'm all in favor of doing whatever we can to keep these magnificent birds (M380's and M450's) on the road as safely as possible.

Please folks let's document what we can in regard to these tie-rod ends. We want owners to be aware of what tie-rod end they're running, the visual differences between the 'new' and 'old', and the part numbers. This is especially important if you're counting on a 16000 lb steer axle rating.

Aim your phone camera's in the vicinity of the tie rod and snap a photo. If you turn the steering wheel full lock I'm certain we can build a collection of worthy photos. For those who are especially enterprising a diameter measurement of the rod using a digital caliper would be great. I'll do what I can to tabulate and file here on WaGu whatever data we collect. Thanks!

David and all of M450 LXI owners. The IFS on the 450 was modified to 17K, however they did not do anything to improve the durability of the tie rods by adding zerk fittings. I added the zerk fittings to add grease at every service interval. I believe these tie rods will out last all of us on this forum, if the rods get serviced annually. I have seen the components of the tie rods and personally believe that a mechanist can make these sub parts. We cannot dispair for not having Meritor make these parts. Any Engineer can draw up a print and have the parts made at a any good shop.
By the way, Ryan Sarri is making boots for the tie rods in Clearwater Florida.