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+--- Thread: Emergency shut down mod (/showthread.php?tid=2477)
Pages: 1 2
Emergency shut down mod - Stephen Birtles - 04-26-2006 00:52
Now would that be a dry powder or co2 extinguisher or water type
extinguisher. Since the marority of folks carry a dry type
extinguisher due to the compact size. Diesel and gasoline engines
would sustain a great deal of damage ingesting the dry powder type
prevalent today. Since most dry powder extinguisers use Sodium
bicarbonate as an extinguishing agent. I seriously question your
logic.Also the amount of air moved in the combustion cycle would
preclude the use of co2 and most certainly using a water type would
create a lot of damage.
A good dose of water would hydraulic the engine since as you know
water is non-compressible
Sodium Bicarbonate is used in our business as a paint removal agent
it is very abrasive. I would think that an engine sucking in an
abrasive agent such as 3 to 5 pounds of sodium bicarbonate would
sustain just as much damage as a runaway. Certainly a major out of
frame rebuild would be necessary in either case.
In your research how many runaways versus number of diesel engines are
involved? Inquiring minds would like to know
But then again it is different strokes for different folks
Stephen 77fc35
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
>
> There is only one sure fire way to shut down a runnaway diesel and
> that is to shut off the air. Since it is caused by either oil or fuel
> getting sucked into the intake past worn or blown turbocharger seals
> then the only control you have is thru the air that it needs to keep
> running. If this ever happens the quickest way to shut it down if
> the emergency shut off does not work is to aim a fire extinguisher at
> the air intake and give it a blast.
>
> Tom Warner
> Vernon Center,NY
> 1985 PT 40
>
Emergency shut down mod - Mike Hohnstein - 04-26-2006 01:44
Yeah, I wondered about that. I have heard that CO2 would kill a runaway so I
carry the biggest one that will fit in the side compartment. Had an injector
pump fail in the FC a while back, when it was inspected the tech said, "Lucky it
didn't runaway", I nearly soiled myself at the thought.
The real deal would probably be Halon, but you can't beat a intake plate to be
sure.
Mike Hohnstein
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Birtles
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Emergency shut down mod
Now would that be a dry powder or co2 extinguisher or water type
extinguisher. Since the marority of folks carry a dry type
extinguisher due to the compact size. Diesel and gasoline engines
would sustain a great deal of damage ingesting the dry powder type
prevalent today. Since most dry powder extinguisers use Sodium
bicarbonate as an extinguishing agent. I seriously question your
logic.Also the amount of air moved in the combustion cycle would
preclude the use of co2 and most certainly using a water type would
create a lot of damage.
A good dose of water would hydraulic the engine since as you know
water is non-compressible
Sodium Bicarbonate is used in our business as a paint removal agent
it is very abrasive. I would think that an engine sucking in an
abrasive agent such as 3 to 5 pounds of sodium bicarbonate would
sustain just as much damage as a runaway. Certainly a major out of
frame rebuild would be necessary in either case.
In your research how many runaways versus number of diesel engines are
involved? Inquiring minds would like to know
But then again it is different strokes for different folks
Stephen 77fc35
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
>
> There is only one sure fire way to shut down a runnaway diesel and
> that is to shut off the air. Since it is caused by either oil or fuel
> getting sucked into the intake past worn or blown turbocharger seals
> then the only control you have is thru the air that it needs to keep
> running. If this ever happens the quickest way to shut it down if
> the emergency shut off does not work is to aim a fire extinguisher at
> the air intake and give it a blast.
>
> Tom Warner
> Vernon Center,NY
> 1985 PT 40
>
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Emergency shut down mod - Jeff Miller - 04-26-2006 02:30
I had it happen on a 3208 after a fuel injector broke, filling the
crankcase with enough diesel to hit the rods and churn it up.
Happened in Chicago, ran full-throttle with the fuel shut off, ...
fortunately it isn't difficult to overcome the 3208 with the brakes.
Often it is simply the injection pump that causes the runaway
(usually), cutting the fuel supply will kill it, spinning off a fuel
filter so air gets in works in this case (or cutting a line, I guess
the sledge-hammer is faster when you're saving an engine).
I did watch a farmer try to stall a runaway tractor against a big oak
tree, it dug big holes before he got it stopped.
The flap on the PTs works pretty well usually, I haven't heard of it
failing (except on one '86 which was on fire). Engine can't run
without air no matter how much fuel you give it.
- Jeff Miller
in Holland, MI
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "randydupree2000"
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Birtles"
>
> been around several runaways,we shut them down by knocking the fuel
> filter off with a hammer,shoving a raincoat in the air filter to
try
> to choke the engine down(it didnt work),the flap in the early DD's
> don't work either,it will slow it down,but not shut it down.its
hard
> to stand there and try to save an engine when its running wide
> open,take a sledge hammer,knock off a fuel line,then run!
> randy
> >
> > have never seen a 4 cycle runaway But iam sure it can happen but
> have
> > had a 2000 horsepower GM runaway and blow it was neat 500
gallons
> of
> > old oil every where
> > Stephen
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
> >
> > >
> > > Scott:
> > >
> > > Two different engines and systems. My post concerns the PT's
not
> FC's.
> > > Sorry for my not making that clear.
> > >
> > > Safe travels,
> > >
> > > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> > > Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
> > > http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm
> > >
> > > At 06:26 PM 4/25/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> > > >"there is not a manual cable pull such as in the older Bird's"
> > > >
> > > >Does my '82 FC have one of these? Where is it?
> > > >
> > > >Scott Forman
> > > >82 FC35RB
> > > >Memphis
> > > >
> > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good morning everyone:
> > > > >
> > > > > There, recently, has been a situation that needs to be
> addressed
> > > >with a
> > > > > modification added to the '88 through 90's Birds.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am working on drawing a schematic which adds a Bosh relay
> and a
> > > >switch
> > > > > located in an accessory slot on the dash, for the engine
> emergency
> > > >shut
> > > > > down of the engine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Problem: A relay, # 34 welded the contacts and the Coach
> could not
> > > >be shut
> > > > > down with either the dash or rear key switch and there is
> not a
> > > >manual
> > > > > cable pull such as in the older Bird's.
> > > > >
> > > > > Solution: Adding a relay to the fuel shut off valve
> circuit, that
> > > >is
> > > > > controlled by a switch on the dash. The relay coil will be
> on the
> > > >switch
> > > > > and the wire going to the fuel shut off valve on the engine
> will be
> > > >on the
> > > > > normally closed side of the relay, thus if the added relay
> ever
> > > >fails then
> > > > > it will fail closed keeping the power on the fuel shut off
> valve.
> > > >By
> > > > > switching the relay, the circuit to the fuel shut off valve
> is
> > > >opened up
> > > > > and you have engine shut down.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will try to get this modification added to the files
> section this
> > > > > weekend, with the correct wire numbers/colors and
> connections for
> > > >those who
> > > > > might be interested.
> > > > >
> > > > > This circuit will be added to Ken and Patti
> Marsh's "ToWanda" Which
> > > >is an
> > > > > '89PTWB.
> > > > >
> > > > > So far as I know, this is a first with this "no shut down"
> > > >problem. It,
> > > > > seemingly has always been, "I can't get it to start"
problem.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Emergency shut down mod - Jeff Miller - 04-26-2006 03:15
I always carry a Halon and a foam by the engine, not sure the Halon
would be big enough for a wide-open 10.2liter engine or bigger still
the over 700cu-in Detroit. A lot of air will go through that engine at
high-rpms before it spools down to zero, better have enough Co2 for the
whole event. Go big is a good idea.
I'd side with a plate, might not shut it off completely but easier to
kill an idling engine with an extinguisher or whatever, and I won't
stand next to a runaway no matter what it's worth, forged rods come out
fast. That's why Randy says "then run away".
- Jeff Miller
in Holland, MI
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
<MHOHNSTEIN@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah, I wondered about that. I have heard that CO2 would kill a
runaway so I carry the biggest one that will fit in the side
compartment. Had an injector pump fail in the FC a while back, when it
was inspected the tech said, "Lucky it didn't runaway", I nearly soiled
myself at the thought.
> The real deal would probably be Halon, but you can't beat a intake
plate to be sure.
> Mike Hohnstein
Emergency shut down mod - randydupree2000 - 04-26-2006 14:03
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
>ahhh tom,that is a classic classroom approach to shutting it
down,when in real life in a not perfect world and an engine running
wide open not 3 feet from you about the only thing you can do is knock
off a filter or line and hope it runs out of fuel before it blows all
to hell. i've tried the air thing,and the only way that works is if
you have the air cleaner off the engine and you have a board handy
that will cover the air horn,not almost cover it,and it has to be
small enough to get it in that area,then of course you have to have
the nerve to hold that board over the air horn until it dies.most
times to use that board on a truck means you have to climb up on a
tire to get to the air horn. remember,you have only seconds to either
run,or be a hero. i shoved a raincoat into a detroit blower to try to
cut the air off,it slowed down about 300 rpm's,i took a sledge hammer
and knocked the fuel filter off,but before it died it slung the clutch
out,all over the parking lot.that was the first one i had run
away,after that i never tried the air thing again..
randy
> There is only one sure fire way to shut down a runnaway diesel and
> that is to shut off the air. Since it is caused by either oil or
fuel
> getting sucked into the intake past worn or blown turbocharger seals
> then the only control you have is thru the air that it needs to keep
> running. If this ever happens the quickest way to shut it down if
> the emergency shut off does not work is to aim a fire extinguisher
at
> the air intake and give it a blast.
>
> Tom Warner
> Vernon Center,NY
> 1985 PT 40
>
Emergency shut down mod - randydupree2000 - 04-26-2006 14:08
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Birtles"
>stephen,the only thing that might work is halon,and a lot of it,of
course you know thats not available anymore.co2? never happen,with
an engine running wide open,you could never get the volume from a
co2 5lb cylinder to do anything..
randy
> Now would that be a dry powder or co2 extinguisher or water type
> extinguisher. Since the marority of folks carry a dry type
> extinguisher due to the compact size. Diesel and gasoline engines
> would sustain a great deal of damage ingesting the dry powder type
> prevalent today. Since most dry powder extinguisers use Sodium
> bicarbonate as an extinguishing agent. I seriously question your
> logic.Also the amount of air moved in the combustion cycle would
> preclude the use of co2 and most certainly using a water type would
> create a lot of damage.
> A good dose of water would hydraulic the engine since as you know
> water is non-compressible
> Sodium Bicarbonate is used in our business as a paint removal
agent
> it is very abrasive. I would think that an engine sucking in an
> abrasive agent such as 3 to 5 pounds of sodium bicarbonate would
> sustain just as much damage as a runaway. Certainly a major out of
> frame rebuild would be necessary in either case.
> In your research how many runaways versus number of diesel engines
are
> involved? Inquiring minds would like to know
>
> But then again it is different strokes for different folks
>
> Stephen 77fc35
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
> >
> > There is only one sure fire way to shut down a runnaway diesel
and
> > that is to shut off the air. Since it is caused by either oil or
fuel
> > getting sucked into the intake past worn or blown turbocharger
seals
> > then the only control you have is thru the air that it needs to
keep
> > running. If this ever happens the quickest way to shut it down
if
> > the emergency shut off does not work is to aim a fire
extinguisher at
> > the air intake and give it a blast.
> >
> > Tom Warner
> > Vernon Center,NY
> > 1985 PT 40
> >
>
Emergency shut down mod - randydupree2000 - 04-26-2006 14:14
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Miller"
>i never had one runaway while driving it. and the turboed detroits
don't have a flap.and the old non turbos with a flap are allold,and
the flap is a leater type thing,that shrinks with time.the flap will
slow down the engine to a safe speed
randy
> I had it happen on a 3208 after a fuel injector broke, filling the
> crankcase with enough diesel to hit the rods and churn it up.
> Happened in Chicago, ran full-throttle with the fuel shut off, ...
> fortunately it isn't difficult to overcome the 3208 with the
brakes.
>
> Often it is simply the injection pump that causes the runaway
> (usually), cutting the fuel supply will kill it, spinning off a
fuel
> filter so air gets in works in this case (or cutting a line, I
guess
> the sledge-hammer is faster when you're saving an engine).
>
> I did watch a farmer try to stall a runaway tractor against a big
oak
> tree, it dug big holes before he got it stopped.
>
> The flap on the PTs works pretty well usually, I haven't heard of
it
> failing (except on one '86 which was on fire). Engine can't run
> without air no matter how much fuel you give it.
>
> - Jeff Miller
> in Holland, MI
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "randydupree2000"
>
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Birtles"
> >
> > been around several runaways,we shut them down by knocking the
fuel
> > filter off with a hammer,shoving a raincoat in the air filter to
> try
> > to choke the engine down(it didnt work),the flap in the early
DD's
> > don't work either,it will slow it down,but not shut it down.its
> hard
> > to stand there and try to save an engine when its running wide
> > open,take a sledge hammer,knock off a fuel line,then run!
> > randy
> > >
> > > have never seen a 4 cycle runaway But iam sure it can happen
but
> > have
> > > had a 2000 horsepower GM runaway and blow it was neat 500
> gallons
> > of
> > > old oil every where
> > > Stephen
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Scott:
> > > >
> > > > Two different engines and systems. My post concerns the PT's
> not
> > FC's.
> > > > Sorry for my not making that clear.
> > > >
> > > > Safe travels,
> > > >
> > > > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> > > > Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
> > > > http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm
> > > >
> > > > At 06:26 PM 4/25/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > >"there is not a manual cable pull such as in the older
Bird's"
> > > > >
> > > > >Does my '82 FC have one of these? Where is it?
> > > > >
> > > > >Scott Forman
> > > > >82 FC35RB
> > > > >Memphis
> > > > >
> > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L.
Fullenwider"
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good morning everyone:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There, recently, has been a situation that needs to be
> > addressed
> > > > >with a
> > > > > > modification added to the '88 through 90's Birds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am working on drawing a schematic which adds a Bosh
relay
> > and a
> > > > >switch
> > > > > > located in an accessory slot on the dash, for the engine
> > emergency
> > > > >shut
> > > > > > down of the engine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Problem: A relay, # 34 welded the contacts and the Coach
> > could not
> > > > >be shut
> > > > > > down with either the dash or rear key switch and there
is
> > not a
> > > > >manual
> > > > > > cable pull such as in the older Bird's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Solution: Adding a relay to the fuel shut off valve
> > circuit, that
> > > > >is
> > > > > > controlled by a switch on the dash. The relay coil will
be
> > on the
> > > > >switch
> > > > > > and the wire going to the fuel shut off valve on the
engine
> > will be
> > > > >on the
> > > > > > normally closed side of the relay, thus if the added
relay
> > ever
> > > > >fails then
> > > > > > it will fail closed keeping the power on the fuel shut
off
> > valve.
> > > > >By
> > > > > > switching the relay, the circuit to the fuel shut off
valve
> > is
> > > > >opened up
> > > > > > and you have engine shut down.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will try to get this modification added to the files
> > section this
> > > > > > weekend, with the correct wire numbers/colors and
> > connections for
> > > > >those who
> > > > > > might be interested.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This circuit will be added to Ken and Patti
> > Marsh's "ToWanda" Which
> > > > >is an
> > > > > > '89PTWB.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So far as I know, this is a first with this "no shut
down"
> > > > >problem. It,
> > > > > > seemingly has always been, "I can't get it to start"
> problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Emergency shut down mod - randydupree2000 - 04-26-2006 14:19
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Miller"
runaway from a runaway!hahaa! and you don't need any coffee for a
little while!
randy
>
> I always carry a Halon and a foam by the engine, not sure the
Halon
> would be big enough for a wide-open 10.2liter engine or bigger
still
> the over 700cu-in Detroit. A lot of air will go through that
engine at
> high-rpms before it spools down to zero, better have enough Co2
for the
> whole event. Go big is a good idea.
>
> I'd side with a plate, might not shut it off completely but easier
to
> kill an idling engine with an extinguisher or whatever, and I
won't
> stand next to a runaway no matter what it's worth, forged rods
come out
> fast. That's why Randy says "then run away".
>
> - Jeff Miller
> in Holland, MI
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
> <MHOHNSTEIN@> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, I wondered about that. I have heard that CO2 would kill a
> runaway so I carry the biggest one that will fit in the side
> compartment. Had an injector pump fail in the FC a while back,
when it
> was inspected the tech said, "Lucky it didn't runaway", I nearly
soiled
> myself at the thought.
> > The real deal would probably be Halon, but you can't beat a
intake
> plate to be sure.
> > Mike Hohnstein
>