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+--- Thread: Electrical gremlin (/showthread.php?tid=2436)
Electrical gremlin - David Brady - 04-19-2006 14:29
Folks,
I have a slight problem with my generator auto
start feature. The auto start is controlled by a
board called the Gencon, built by Westhaver
Assoc. The gencon monitors the house batteries
and the shore power and starts the generator
when the house batteries dip below 11.4V or
when the shorepower drops below 104V AC.
I have good shore power and my house batteries
are charged, the dash "DC Volts Coach" gauge
reads 14V and the trace inverters indicate 100%
charge, nonetheless the gencon wants to start the
generator.
Here's the kicker, my dash "DC Volts Engine"
gauge reads around 12.5V, if I switch the dash
"Aux Battery" switch to "on " (thereby connecting
the house and the engine batteries), the gencon
no longer wants to start the generator.
I would think that the discharged engine batteries
would put even more of a load on the house batteries
prompting the gencon to start the generator, but the
reverse happens, with the "Aux Battery" switch disabled the
gencon wants to start the generator while enabling
the "Aux Battery" switch prevents the gencon from
starting the generator. It's almost as if my gencon is
monitoring the engine batteries and not the house
batteries...
Thanks for your help,
David Brady
'02 LXi, Smokey
Va
Electrical gremlin - randydupree2000 - 04-20-2006 00:18
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>find the wire that senses battery voltage,at the board. check the
voltage at the board,just to rule out voltage drop in the wires.at
least,thats where i would start.
randy dupree
> Folks,
>
> I have a slight problem with my generator auto
> start feature. The auto start is controlled by a
> board called the Gencon, built by Westhaver
> Assoc. The gencon monitors the house batteries
> and the shore power and starts the generator
> when the house batteries dip below 11.4V or
> when the shorepower drops below 104V AC.
>
> I have good shore power and my house batteries
> are charged, the dash "DC Volts Coach" gauge
> reads 14V and the trace inverters indicate 100%
> charge, nonetheless the gencon wants to start the
> generator.
>
> Here's the kicker, my dash "DC Volts Engine"
> gauge reads around 12.5V, if I switch the dash
> "Aux Battery" switch to "on " (thereby connecting
> the house and the engine batteries), the gencon
> no longer wants to start the generator.
>
> I would think that the discharged engine batteries
> would put even more of a load on the house batteries
> prompting the gencon to start the generator, but the
> reverse happens, with the "Aux Battery" switch disabled the
> gencon wants to start the generator while enabling
> the "Aux Battery" switch prevents the gencon from
> starting the generator. It's almost as if my gencon is
> monitoring the engine batteries and not the house
> batteries...
>
> Thanks for your help,
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, Smokey
> Va
>
Electrical gremlin - John Suter - 04-20-2006 01:02
Hi David,
> I have a slight problem with my generator auto
> start feature. The auto start is controlled by a
> board called the Gencon, built by Westhaver
> Assoc. The gencon monitors the house batteries
> and the shore power and starts the generator
> when the house batteries dip below 11.4V or
> when the shore-power drops below 104V AC.
Let's start by eliminating:
If you have an incorrect AC adapter, the brownout
function will have the wrong threshold. Your '02
(actually Gencons made after 98) are typically
calibrated for the radio Shack AC adapter catalog
number 273-1764 and the Adapt-a-plug (Radio shack #
273-1708 attached so the plug tip is the positive.
> I have good shore power and my house batteries
> are charged, the dash "DC Volts Coach" gauge
> reads 14V and the trace inverters indicate 100%
> charge, nonetheless the gencon wants to start the
> generator.
A reading above 12.65V means the batteries are not
"at rest" (one hour or more without charging or
discharging) such that what is being "read" is likely
the float/maintenance, inverter/charging voltage
provided to the coach/house battery bank(sometimes
called the surface charge), and not necessarily that
of the battery bank itself.
> Here's the kicker, my dash "DC Volts Engine"
> gauge reads around 12.5V,
When the "Aux Battery" switch (sometimes called the
boost switch) is "off" and the engine ignition switch
also "off," an isolation solenoid separates the engine
battery bank from the coach/house battery bank. This
12.5V is the 12.65 or so, referred to previously as
the "resting voltage." Your 12.5v tends to indicate a
"good" battery bank. 12.0 would indicate discharged.
For the record, when the ignition switch is "on" the
solenoid is typically energized so the engine
alternator will charge all banks (note the green LED
at the dash switch).
> if I switch the dash
> "Aux Battery" switch to "on " (thereby connecting
> the house and the engine batteries), the gencon
> no longer wants to start the generator.
>
> I would think that the discharged
(Incorrect assumption about discharged)
engine batteries
> would put even more of a load on the house batteries
> prompting the gencon to start the generator, but the
> reverse happens, with the "Aux Battery" switch
> disabled the
> gencon wants to start the generator while enabling
> the "Aux Battery" switch prevents the gencon from
> starting the generator. It's almost as if my gencon
> is
> monitoring the engine batteries and not the house
> batteries...
It is possible an error was made or a change
somewhere along the way. How long has this been
happening and were there any changes made to the
batteries, inverter/charger, switches in the bays,
etc.?
Have you noticed the switch in the forward-most,
driver-side bin, labeled "No 110V A/C and Low 110V
A/c" or words to that effect?
That switch enables/disables the brown-out "shore
power" sensing. In "Low" mode the brown-out feature
is enabled. In the other position, nothing will
happen with no shore power unless the house bank is
also below 11.25V - PROVIDING, the selectable voltages
are properly set on the plug-in Radio Shack device
which you will find plugged into the 110V duplex
outlet high, in the bay.
> Thanks for your help,
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, Smokey
> Va
Let's start with the above and see where we can go
from here to solve the problem.
John Suter
2000LXi and prior PT40's
__________________________________________________
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Electrical gremlin - lwesthaver1958 - 04-21-2006 04:27
David, I received a call this morning from John Suter. He wanted to
get some clarification on the operation of our GenCon generator
controller. To make a long story short, he recommended that I visit
this form and take a look around. Having done that, I was surprised to
see that you are continuing to have trouble with your GenCon. I want
to extend an invitation to any GenCon owner to either email, call or
post a message in this forum when you have a GenCon problem and we'll
do our best to address it.
Thanks John, for pointing me to this forum.
Wes Westhaver
Westhaver Associates, Inc.
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I have a slight problem with my generator auto
> start feature. The auto start is controlled by a
> board called the Gencon, built by Westhaver
> Assoc. The gencon monitors the house batteries
> and the shore power and starts the generator
> when the house batteries dip below 11.4V or
> when the shorepower drops below 104V AC.
>
Electrical gremlin - Ralph L. Fullenwider - 04-21-2006 04:37
Hello Wes and welcome to the Forum.
Would it be possible, since we all need or could need, a little GenCon 101
here, to post the sequence of operation for that circuit?
Reason being, if we know the sequence on how it is designed to work
properly then it gives us a solid foundation in which to start the trouble
shooting procedure. Also we have a files section on this Forum that would
gladly accept a schematic of the circuitry to hand in had with the sequence
of operation. Having that knowledge on hand will un doubtingly get someone
from being stranded on the side of the road somewhere, etal: as an example.
Many thanks for any light you can put on this subject.
Safe travels,
Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm
At 04:27 PM 4/21/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>David, I received a call this morning from John Suter. He wanted to
>get some clarification on the operation of our GenCon generator
>controller. To make a long story short, he recommended that I visit
>this form and take a look around. Having done that, I was surprised to
>see that you are continuing to have trouble with your GenCon. I want
>to extend an invitation to any GenCon owner to either email, call or
>post a message in this forum when you have a GenCon problem and we'll
>do our best to address it.
>
>Thanks John, for pointing me to this forum.
>
>Wes Westhaver
>Westhaver Associates, Inc.
>
Electrical gremlin - David Brady - 04-21-2006 08:58
Thanks Wes, for your offer. I'm in the process of trying to understand
my symptoms a bit which takes time and use. I'm now at a campground
with the "gen auto switch" enabled and the brown-out set to ignore the
lower 60V ac, with the radioshack ac adapter unplugged, and with
shore power connected.
What I'm doing is forcing the gencon to only sense the coach dc voltage
level.
I'll run it like this for a day or so to see if the generator starts; so
far so good.
Thanks again for the offer to help diagnose my possible issues; first I need
to collect some data.
One thing that would be very useful from the gencon would be a display
of the reason for the last generator start; i.e., AC brown-out or low DC.
The display could be a small led readout on the board itself. As it is
today,
it's sometimes a bit of a mystery understanding the rationale behind a
generator start.
Best regards,
David Brady
'02 LXi, Smokey
Va
lwesthaver1958 wrote:
> David, I received a call this morning from John Suter. He wanted to
> get some clarification on the operation of our GenCon generator
> controller. To make a long story short, he recommended that I visit
> this form and take a look around. Having done that, I was surprised to
> see that you are continuing to have trouble with your GenCon. I want
> to extend an invitation to any GenCon owner to either email, call or
> post a message in this forum when you have a GenCon problem and we'll
> do our best to address it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Electrical gremlin - lwesthaver1958 - 04-23-2006 07:42
Ralph, I think the best way to describe the operation of the Gencon
is to say that it simply sits in a polling loop and watches the
three main inputs ie. House battery, Cranking battery and shore
power.
There are subtle differences in the various firmware versions but
typically the Gencon will start your genset if it sees a brown-out
condition for at least ten seconds. Or if either battery drops below
their respective thresholds.
If you have any questions about specific firmware releases, please
feel free to ask.
As for schematics etc. You may post anything you find on the
Westhaver Associates website here for the benefit of the Bluebird
forum members. If there is some aspect of the Gencon that you would
like to have explained/documented and it isn't already addressed on
our website we'll do our best to address it and post the new
information.
Thank your for your support,
Wes Westhaver
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
>
> Hello Wes and welcome to the Forum.
>
> Would it be possible, since we all need or could need, a little
GenCon 101
> here, to post the sequence of operation for that circuit?
>
> Reason being, if we know the sequence on how it is designed to
work
> properly then it gives us a solid foundation in which to start the
trouble
> shooting procedure. Also we have a files section on this Forum
that would
> gladly accept a schematic of the circuitry to hand in had with the
sequence
> of operation. Having that knowledge on hand will un doubtingly get
someone
> from being stranded on the side of the road somewhere, etal: as an
example.
>
> Many thanks for any light you can put on this subject.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
> http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm
>
> At 04:27 PM 4/21/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> >David, I received a call this morning from John Suter. He wanted
to
> >get some clarification on the operation of our GenCon generator
> >controller. To make a long story short, he recommended that I
visit
> >this form and take a look around. Having done that, I was
surprised to
> >see that you are continuing to have trouble with your GenCon. I
want
> >to extend an invitation to any GenCon owner to either email, call
or
> >post a message in this forum when you have a GenCon problem and
we'll
> >do our best to address it.
> >
> >Thanks John, for pointing me to this forum.
> >
> >Wes Westhaver
> >Westhaver Associates, Inc.
> >
>
Electrical gremlin - lwesthaver1958 - 04-23-2006 07:50
David, it sounds like you are going to get to the bottom of your
problem through the process of elimination.
John Suter has a good grasp on the inner workings of the Gencon and
has given good advice for troubleshooting. If you have any specific
questions as you work through the problem, please let me know.
Wes Westhaver
Westhaver Associates, Inc.
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> Thanks Wes, for your offer. I'm in the process of trying to
understand
> my symptoms a bit which takes time and use. I'm now at a campground
> with the "gen auto switch" enabled and the brown-out set to ignore
the
> lower 60V ac, with the radioshack ac adapter unplugged, and with
> shore power connected.
>
> What I'm doing is forcing the gencon to only sense the coach dc
voltage
> level.
> I'll run it like this for a day or so to see if the generator
starts; so
> far so good.
> Thanks again for the offer to help diagnose my possible issues;
first I need
> to collect some data.
>
> One thing that would be very useful from the gencon would be a
display
> of the reason for the last generator start; i.e., AC brown-out or
low DC.
>
> The display could be a small led readout on the board itself. As
it is
> today,
> it's sometimes a bit of a mystery understanding the rationale
behind a
> generator start.
>
> Best regards,
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, Smokey
> Va
>
> lwesthaver1958 wrote:
> > David, I received a call this morning from John Suter. He wanted
to
> > get some clarification on the operation of our GenCon generator
> > controller. To make a long story short, he recommended that I
visit
> > this form and take a look around. Having done that, I was
surprised to
> > see that you are continuing to have trouble with your GenCon. I
want
> > to extend an invitation to any GenCon owner to either email,
call or
> > post a message in this forum when you have a GenCon problem and
we'll
> > do our best to address it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Electrical gremlin - John Suter - 04-23-2006 11:59
Hi Wes,
I think one of our problems as owners comes from the
description, "brown-out."
If brown-out means total loss of shore power, or
shore power dropping below 100 volts A/C, then we have
a "start generator condition" when our gen start dash
switch is on, and the Low A/C - No A/C switch is set
to Low A/C, and the house battery bank voltage drops
to 11.25 volts D/C.
Seminars have instructed that we set the Low A/C -
No A/C switch to No A/C when pets are to stay in the
coach unattended, with the shore power connected and
the Air conditioner(s) running, to permit the
generator to start immediately upon shore power
failure without also having to meet the criteria of
low house battery voltage.
Perhaps you can amplify or correct that information,
as it appears contradicted by information on the
website.
Keep in mind, it is difficult to understand why an
owner would want to permit any kind of shore power
"Brown-out" condition as it would surely play havoc
with our electronics.
Last, I'm also not at all sure our GenCon setups
poll the cranking/engine battery, and although the
Westhaver website makes reference to polling the
generator battery, I have haven't heard of a Bluebird
making use of that feature.
Thanks so much for your help.
John Suter
--- lwesthaver1958
> Ralph, I think the best way to describe the
> operation of the Gencon
> is to say that it simply sits in a polling loop and
> watches the
> three main inputs ie. House battery, Cranking
> battery and shore
> power.
>
> There are subtle differences in the various firmware
> versions but
> typically the Gencon will start your genset if it
> sees a brown-out
> condition for at least ten seconds. Or if either
> battery drops below
> their respective thresholds.
>
> If you have any questions about specific firmware
> releases, please
> feel free to ask.
>
> As for schematics etc. You may post anything you
> find on the
> Westhaver Associates website here for the benefit of
> the Bluebird
> forum members. If there is some aspect of the Gencon
> that you would
> like to have explained/documented and it isn't
> already addressed on
> our website we'll do our best to address it and post
> the new
> information.
>
> Thank your for your support,
> Wes Westhaver
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Electrical gremlin - lwesthaver1958 - 04-24-2006 04:56
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, John Suter
wrote:
>
> Hi Wes,
>
> I think one of our problems as owners comes from the
> description, "brown-out."
> If brown-out means total loss of shore power, or
> shore power dropping below 100 volts A/C, then we have
> a "start generator condition" when our gen start dash
> switch is on, and the Low A/C - No A/C switch is set
> to Low A/C, and the house battery bank voltage drops
> to 11.25 volts D/C.
John,
Brown-out is defined as shore power voltage of 105 volts down to zero
volts as specified by Blue Bird.
I am not sure about Blue Birds nomenclature "No A/C or Low A/C". If this
switch is the one connected to E25, closing the switch, thus putting
+12V on the terminal, will cause the brown-out range to be 105 down to 0
VAC. If the switch is open, which is the position for road travel, the
GENCON will not respond to 0 volts on the shore power.
Technically, that open position still monitors shore power, but the
brown-out range is 105 down to 60 VAC, which isn't going to be possible
with the coach disconnected from shore power.
Monitoring of batteries and shore power are completely independent i.e.
any one of the batteries voltage dropping below its limit, or the shore
power dropping below 105 VAC for ten seconds, is a sufficient condition
to start the generator. They do not all have to happen at once.
> Seminars have instructed that we set the Low A/C -
> No A/C switch to No A/C when pets are to stay in the
> coach unattended, with the shore power connected and
> the Air conditioner(s) running, to permit the
> generator to start immediately upon shore power
> failure without also having to meet the criteria of
> low house battery voltage.
> Perhaps you can amplify or correct that information,
> as it appears contradicted by information on the
> website.
> Keep in mind, it is difficult to understand why an
> owner would want to permit any kind of shore power
> "Brown-out" condition as it would surely play havoc
> with our electronics.
We agree that a brown-out condition should always be avoided. It is very
harmful to any motor, causing excessive heating.
> Last, I'm also not at all sure our GenCon setups
> poll the cranking/engine battery, and although the
> Westhaver website makes reference to polling the
> generator battery, I have haven't heard of a Bluebird
> making use of that feature.
Unfortunately, some manufacturers used only a portion of the GENCON's
capabilities. The GENCON was designed to monitor the house and the
generator-cranking batteries. It was never intended to monitor the
battery used to crank/start the bus engine.
We have seen installations where terminals E3 and E4 are connected
together, which means the Gencon is monitoring one battery on both of
its inputs. This greatly reduces the Gencon's functionality.
The Gencon was designed to make certain that:
1) The genset battery is always charged so that you'll always b able to
start the genset when it is needed.
2) The house battery or batteries are always maintained so you will
always have power for interior lights and and other accessories like
water pumps, slide-outs etc.
3) The AC shore power is always maintained even when your shore power
fails due to a brown-out or complete shore power loss.
Another typical mistake made by manufacturers is using the wrong Radio
Shack ac adapter and connecting it to ac after the first transfer
switch. It should be connected to shore power before the first transfer
switch otherwise it won't be monitoring the shore power but rather it
will be monitoring the generators AC output. Which means that the Gencon
won't be able to respond to a brown-out condition.
Having said all of this, each RV manufacturer decides how they want to
implement the Gencon, and frankly, many have implemented the Gencon in
ways that severly limit its unctionality.
I hope this clarifies things.
> Thanks so much for your help.
>
> John Suter
>
>
>
> --- lwesthaver1958 lwesthaver@... wrote:
>
> > Ralph, I think the best way to describe the
> > operation of the Gencon
> > is to say that it simply sits in a polling loop and
> > watches the
> > three main inputs ie. House battery, Cranking
> > battery and shore
> > power.
> >
> > There are subtle differences in the various firmware
> > versions but
> > typically the Gencon will start your genset if it
> > sees a brown-out
> > condition for at least ten seconds. Or if either
> > battery drops below
> > their respective thresholds.
> >
> > If you have any questions about specific firmware
> > releases, please
> > feel free to ask.
> >
> > As for schematics etc. You may post anything you
> > find on the
> > Westhaver Associates website here for the benefit of
> > the Bluebird
> > forum members. If there is some aspect of the Gencon
> > that you would
> > like to have explained/documented and it isn't
> > already addressed on
> > our website we'll do our best to address it and post
> > the new
> > information.
> >
> > Thank your for your support,
> > Wes Westhaver
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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