Are budget RVs really possible?

[Jim March]

beancounterman wrote:

> I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and
> the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest.

-sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus-

You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable
comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land.

That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there
is. But...damn.

Lemme show you two items:

http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddeta...683729.htm

That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp,
made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import,
$50k.

And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies,
aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained -
30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k:

http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html

Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them couldn't
build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the rump
off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap?

Jim

[Jim Owens]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Jim March wrote:
> beancounterman wrote:
>
> > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves,
and
> > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest.
>
> -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus-
>
> You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable
> comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with
land.
>
> That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure
there is ... but damn!

Jim,

This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site.
Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion
based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a
few concerns about tank capacities, etc.

Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on
low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the
M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought
was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some
thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building
coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost
coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing
capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated
with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a
coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand.

Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do
depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more
typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts
considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is
about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily,
nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a
junkyard)!

I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long.

Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas)
Lake of the Ozarks, MO

[Jim March]

Jim Owens wrote:

> Jim,
>
> This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site.
> Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion
> based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a
> few concerns about tank capacities, etc.
>
> Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on
> low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the
> M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought
> was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some
> thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building
> coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost
> coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing
> capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated
> with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a
> coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand.
>
> Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do
> depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more
> typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts
> considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is
> about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily,
> nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a
> junkyard)!
>
> I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long.
>
> Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas)
> Lake of the Ozarks, MO


Yeah, I can understand all that.

BUT.

A lot of the marketing behind the current crop of sub-$100k (hell, even
sub-$200k) units is based on people either being idiots or having low
expectations as to serious durability/performance. They've mostly
gotten away from wood frames (not entirely!) but you still see critters
that don't have enough suspension/axle loading for the weight, that
handle like pigs, that are particle board carpentry inside, "battery
charger" with no brains that boils batteries over and on and on and on.
Only a moron would drop $150k into some of this crap.

Right now a lot of the people attracted to used Wanderlodges (esp.
steel-bodied critters) are NOT attracted to "luxury" but to the serious
durability factor...the industrial-grade suspensions, drivetrains and
frames, and so on.

BUT - even if you have an '86 FC35 let's say, and in cherry condition,
you've got two problems: milage (mainly due to the steel body and
inefficient 3208) and the steel body CAN rust if the paint isn't
maintained...something more difficult for a fulltimer or somebody that
has to do outside storage.

Between 1990 and 1994 Safari had a really good idea for a "working man's
ClassA" - the original Trek 28'. This was a puller using an Isuzu four
banger turbodiesel puller. It was basically a small cargo truck frame
turned into an RV. The frame was aluminum, the skin was fiberglas. It
worked VERY well and got 14mpg or better even with an automatic - if
they'd done a manual 6sp overdrive version like many of the small
commercial trucks are they could have hit 17mpg and 20 wouldn't have
been out of the question.

Do something similar but in a ClassC, have an option for a small garage
in back for those who want to do mobile repairs/shop stuff or keep bikes
in, you'd have one HELL of a good rig. NOT a "brothel on wheels" by any
means but a good functional unit under $100k that will LAST and that you
can afford fuel for.

Jim

[Mike Hohnstein]

Sure, I can go with that. First, start a company to do make the product.
Design the product and set up the manufacturing procedures. Oh, you will need
some kind of distribution net work or a way to get your production to the end
users. Oh, it's a motor vehicle that people are going to ride in, I'll bet
there are some hoops that Joan Claybrook and her friends at the highway safety
hand wringers group will want you to jump through, for the children of course.
Let's see, how many will we need to build, uh better buy some trucks, and some
materials to build the coaches with, wow, that's a lot of stuff to pay for
before I sell a damn thing. Better go to the banker and see if he believes I
can do this thing, that seems like such a piece of cake. You mean they have to
look good so people will buy them? Doesn't any one see that they are
FUNCTIONAL? and priced real well? I don't get it, why am I bankrupt? Get the
picture Jim? Ever been to Elkhart IN? The place if full of great RV Ideas,
most sink, some swim. Winnebagos been swimming a long time, it's not a product
I would want, but there are a lot of people who are content with their stuff and
those products made by them and their peers. You need to get busy and build what
you want and maybe you might be able to make a couple on the side and use the
"profits" for your retirement. I went through the home built deal a couple of
times, still have one of the rigs, I could have bought used product for less
money but I got the EXPERIENCE, and that's worth a lot to me.
Mike Hohnstein
Germantown, WI
83FC35

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim March
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:34 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Are budget RVs really possible?


beancounterman wrote:

> I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and
> the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest.

-sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus-

You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable
comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land.

That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there
is. But...damn.

Lemme show you two items:

http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddeta...683729.htm

That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp,
made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import,
$50k.

And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies,
aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained -
30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k:

http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html

Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them couldn't
build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the rump
off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap?

Jim


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[randydupree]

i agree.the cost of a new prevost conversion shell is over 350,000
bucks.hell,the best peterbilt with all the toys in around $100,000. i hate to
lose the front area,but i just would have to buy the truck,if i was in the
market for new!!randydupree93wb
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim March
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 1:34 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Are budget RVs really possible?


beancounterman wrote:

> I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and
> the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest.

-sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus-

You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable
comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land.

That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there
is. But...damn.

Lemme show you two items:

http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddeta...683729.htm

That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp,
made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import,
$50k.

And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies,
aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained -
30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k:

http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html

Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them couldn't
build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the rump
off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap?

Jim


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/

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WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[randydupree]

i don't know if you guys remember this,but BB converted a mci 45' bus shell some
10 years ago.they could not build a 45' BB because of the weight.story was that
mci was for sale and BB was the buyer.so they were going to use the mci shell
for the 45' wanderlodges.the deal fell through for some reason,so only one
coach was ever built.now,volvo owns prevost,volvo owns BB,why would volvo allow
BB to build bus shells for conversion?when they already have the best shell in
the market?i know what i would do! randydupree93wb
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Owens
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:42 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Are budget RVs really possible?


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Jim March wrote:
> beancounterman wrote:
>
> > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves,
and
> > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest.
>
> -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus-
>
> You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable
> comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with
land.
>
> That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure
there is ... but damn!

Jim,

This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site.
Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion
based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a
few concerns about tank capacities, etc.

Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on
low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the
M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought
was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some
thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building
coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost
coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing
capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated
with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a
coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand.

Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do
depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more
typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts
considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is
about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily,
nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a
junkyard)!

I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long.

Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas)
Lake of the Ozarks, MO





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[beancounterman]

Where is the filet mignon for $1 a pound? We all want it, so why can't we have
it?

I'm sorry, but the real answer to this question is not what we are looking for.
The lessons
of the M380 vs. the old LXi should be taken to heart.

The equation is simple: cost (parts and labor) + overhead + profit = wholesale
cost. Add
the dealer's markup and you get the retail price. You can see on the SEC website
that the
profit margins for public RV companies are quite narrow, and even negative from
time to
time. Dealer margins are typically in the five to ten percent range. So the
problem is not
excessive profit margins.

So the question is: where do you find the savings to lower the price? Assuming
efficient
operations at both the manufacturering and dealer levels (I would argue that
competition
insures that most successful businesses are efficient, and punishes and
ultimately
eliminates the inefficient), the costs of parts or labor must be reduced.
Ultimately,
reducing the price leads to compromises that lower "quality."

An RV is a tough product from a manufacturing standpoint because we demand of a
lot of
content. You know the story--a motorhome is a house that also goes down the road
at 70
m.p.h. In addition, production volumes are low, relative, for example, to the
auto industry.
So the economies of scale are not there, especially in the higher end of the
market. An RV
manuafacter cannot build 50 prototypes of the 2007 model and test them for
100,000
miles each.

The sad news is that, as much as we would love to be able to buy a top quality
new motor
home for $100,000, that kind of a budget is going to result in an RV that is
compromised
in a thousand ways to get to the target price. Think $60,000 mobile home on an
inexpensive (crude) but high GVWR truck chassis.

Or looking at the issue from a different direction, if it was possible to build
the $100,000
unit as the high quality unit we are asking for, someone would already be doing
it very
successfully.

Sometimes we need to recognize that the difficulties of resolving champagne
tastes on
beer budgets.

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, randydupree wrote:
> i don't know if you guys remember this,but BB converted a mci 45' bus shell
some 10
years ago.they could not build a 45' BB because of the weight.story was that mci
was for
sale and BB was the buyer.so they were going to use the mci shell for the 45'
wanderlodges.the deal fell through for some reason,so only one coach was ever
built.now,volvo owns prevost,volvo owns BB,why would volvo allow BB to build bus
shells
for conversion?when they already have the best shell in the market?i know what i
would
do! randydupree93wb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Owens
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:42 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Are budget RVs really possible?
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Jim March wrote:
> > beancounterman wrote:
> >
> > > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves,
> and
> > > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest.
> >
> > -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus-
> >
> > You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable
> > comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with
> land.
> >
> > That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure
> there is ... but damn!
>
> Jim,
>
> This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site.
> Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion
> based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a
> few concerns about tank capacities, etc.
>
> Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on
> low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the
> M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought
> was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some
> thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building
> coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost
> coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing
> capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated
> with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a
> coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand.
>
> Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do
> depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more
> typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts
> considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is
> about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily,
> nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a
> junkyard)!
>
> I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long.
>
> Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas)
> Lake of the Ozarks, MO
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Stephen Birtles]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "beancounterman"
wrote:
> Where is the filet mignon for $1 a pound? We all want it, so why
can't we have it?
>
>

>that easy raise the cows yourself
Stephen 77fc35

[Jim March]

Mike, I hear you, but remember I've shown you a
drivetrain/frame/suspension/cab/controls package that *retails* under
$50k brand new. Buy wholesale, figure at least a good chunk less.

Not saying it's "easy" mind you, not at all. But it's doable.

Jim

Mike Hohnstein wrote:

> Sure, I can go with that. First, start a company to do make the
> product. Design the product and set up the manufacturing procedures.
> Oh, you will need some kind of distribution net work or a way to get
> your production to the end users. Oh, it's a motor vehicle that
> people are going to ride in, I'll bet there are some hoops that Joan
> Claybrook and her friends at the highway safety hand wringers group
> will want you to jump through, for the children of course.
> Let's see, how many will we need to build, uh better buy some trucks,
> and some materials to build the coaches with, wow, that's a lot of
> stuff to pay for before I sell a damn thing. Better go to the banker
> and see if he believes I can do this thing, that seems like such a
> piece of cake. You mean they have to look good so people will buy
> them? Doesn't any one see that they are FUNCTIONAL? and priced real
> well? I don't get it, why am I bankrupt? Get the picture Jim? Ever
> been to Elkhart IN? The place if full of great RV Ideas, most sink,
> some swim. Winnebagos been swimming a long time, it's not a product I
> would want, but there are a lot of people who are content with their
> stuff and those products made by them and their peers. You need to get
> busy and build what you want and maybe you might be able to make a
> couple on the side and use the "profits" for your retirement. I went
> through the home built deal a couple of times, still have one of the
> rigs, I could have bought used product for less money but I got the
> EXPERIENCE, and that's worth a lot to me.
> Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI
> 83FC35
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim March
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:34 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Are budget RVs really possible?
>
>
> beancounterman wrote:
>
> > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and
> > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest.
>
> -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus-
>
> You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable
> comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with
> land.
>
> That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there
> is. But...damn.
>
> Lemme show you two items:
>
>
> http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddeta...683729.htm
>
> That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp,
> made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import,
> $50k.
>
> And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies,
> aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained -
> 30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k:
>
> http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html
>
> Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them
> couldn't
> build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the
> rump
> off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap?
>
> Jim

[George Lowry]

Mike,

You have touched on just some of the problems. Everyone wants a
Cadillac for the price of a used Yugo. Remember that the average RV is
used for two weeks a year plus a couple of weekends and only gets
about 2,000 miles on it per year. That makes the value go down as
compared to price.

I have, for sale, a GM 4106 coach that is, in many ways, superior to
the '95 Wanderlodge we have, however, finding people who want and can
afford such a coach is difficult. Most do not have the cash to buy
and the financial industry is completely ignorant of anything that is
not in KBB making loans next to impossible. They way most dealers are
able to sell is to give recourse to the lending institution, meaning
that if the buyer defaults on the loan, the dealer will repossess and
make the loan good, the dealer standing all the loss. If you are
established enough, you can handle the volume.

The RV industry has done a good job of brainwashing the public to
think that ONLY vehicles produced in a factory can be quality. The
startup costs of such a factory and distribution are, as you pointed
out, daunting.

George Lowry
'95 WBDA 4203 & GM 4106 (for sale)
Spearfish, SD

Mike Hohnstein wrote:

> Sure, I can go with that. First, start a company to do make the
> product. Design the product and set up the manufacturing
> procedures. Oh, you will need some kind of distribution net work
> or a way to get your production to the end users. Oh, it's a motor
> vehicle that people are going to ride in, I'll bet there are some
> hoops that Joan Claybrook and her friends at the highway safety
> hand wringers group will want you to jump through, for the children
> of course. Let's see, how many will we need to build, uh better buy
> some trucks, and some materials to build the coaches with, wow,
> that's a lot of stuff to pay for before I sell a damn thing.
> Better go to the banker and see if he believes I can do this thing,
> that seems like such a piece of cake. You mean they have to look
> good so people will buy them? Doesn't any one see that they are
> FUNCTIONAL? and priced real well? I don't get it, why am I
> bankrupt? Get the picture Jim? Ever been to Elkhart IN? The
> place if full of great RV Ideas, most sink, some swim. Winnebagos
> been swimming a long time, it's not a product I would want, but
> there are a lot of people who are content with their stuff and
> those products made by them and their peers. You need to get busy
> and build what you want and maybe you might be able to make a
> couple on the side and use the "profits" for your retirement. I
> went through the home built deal a couple of times, still have one
> of the rigs, I could have bought used product for less money but I
> got the EXPERIENCE, and that's worth a lot to me. Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI 83FC35
>