Broken Cord on Michelin Tire

[Pete Masterson]

The heavy duty tires on your Blue Bird are likely to "time out"
before the tread wears out.

Actually, the usual advice is to replace the tires at 5 to 7 years --
10 years of sun, rain, etc. is VERY hard on the tires. Always inspect
tires for cracking and checking -- a sure sign that ozone and sun
have damaged the tires.

As for tire covers -- well, there's always a lot of debate about how
helpful they are. Personally, I haven't bothered with them -- but my
coach, when not in use, is stored in a relatively benign location as
far as sun exposure is concerned.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Idaho Springs, CO



On Sep 8, 2008, at 10:57 AM, bubblerboy64 wrote:

> Question. I know that it is recommended to not run tires older then 8
> to 10 years maximum. Approximately how many miles are these tires
> good for? I haven't heard that mentioned. If a guy runs about 10K
> per year can he expect to run out of tread long before the years add
> up? I don't typically get more then 35k on car tires I have no idea
> what to expect on the MH. I of course understand there are all kinds
> of variables to consider but as compared to a car what do you figure
> for tread life on the tires you run on your BB'ds?
> John Heckman
> central Pa
> 1973 FC
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> you guys should find a trucker or trucking company to buy your
> tires
>> prior to 3 or 4 years of age. rotating out a set every year or so
>> will put new one on the front of your bus and run the tread off
> the
>> used tires. its a green thing to do because the tread will be used
> up
>> and the casing will be good for a retread. Tire Jobbers, can set
> you
>> up with good credit for rotating out your used tires. I screw cords
>> up jumping curbs and potholes, kinda doubt it is a Mfg prorate
> thing.
>>
>> GregO'Connor
>> 94ptRomolandCa
>>
>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ross"
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Just a note about reporting the "failure". The request by the
> NHTSA
>>> (national highway traffic safety assoc.) is for all failures, not
>> just
>>> blow-outs. In the requested information, there is a line
>>> "Nature of the reported failure (slow leak,blow-out, worn etc)"
>> This
>>> can be important for the safety of all BlueBirds and all RV's
>>> (especially those using 315 tires)
>>> Ross
>>> 2006 450 LXi
>>> Here is the information:
>>>
>>
> http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ac...s/Public/P
>> ursuits/2008/RQ/INIM-RQ08004-29624.pdf
>>>
>>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Merrill"
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> The left front tire on my coach has a broken cord. The tread is
>> uneven.
>>>> I am getting the tire replaced next week before I head out on a
>> 1,500
>>>> mile trip. The tire only has 27,000 miles on it. Does anyone
> know
>> if
>>>> Michelin has a warranty on tires? Has anyone else had a problem
>> with
>>>> cord breakage on Michelins?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Randy Merrill
>>>> 2003 40'
>>>> Ocala, FL
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Pete Masterson]

I can't say for sure about max inflation. I know that when tires
'bottom out' and hit a very hard edge (like the edge of a large pot
hole or a transition between gravel and pavement) that damage is
likely to occur. Going over curbs, too, can damage tires, especially
if the side wall is highly distorted during the incident.

I'd have to ask a tire engineer about the relative merits of
inflation -- on one hand, it would seem like fully inflated tires are
less likely to crush to the wheel rim, possibly protecting the tire
from pinching damage, but the high pressure would also place the tire
under tension pressure ... so???

Any tire engineers out there?

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Idaho Springs, CO



On Sep 8, 2008, at 11:26 AM, David Brady wrote:

> Are highly inflated tires more prone to these failures? The recall
> for the 450LXi specifies running tires at 130 psi. If the tire is at
> max inflation then it is less able to deflect to road discontinuities.
> Seems like you'll likely have more "broken belt" issues at max
> inflation???
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NV
>
> Pete Masterson wrote:
>>
>> I agree that the 'broken belt' thing is likely a result of a road
>> hazard. While I haven't had any problems with my Toyo tires on my
>> coach, over the years, I've had a several tires on my automobile(s)
>> ruined by construction -- Indeed, a few years ago, when BART was
>> being built in the SF Bay Area, I lost several tires due to hitting
>> pavement from a gravel stretch where a subway was being built using
>> the cut-and-cover method. While I certainly tried to drive carefully
>> through the extensive construction zones, at night there were times
>> you just didn't see a transition until you hit it with that sickening
>> thud. Often the tires don't actually display any problems until days
>> (or weeks) after the damaging event. The damage occurs, then the
>> flexing of the tire causes the damage to spread until the tire-cord
>> is compromised.
>>
>> Michelin makes generally good, tough tires. It's always possible that
>> a manufacturing defect was involved, but it's unlikely. More likely
>> there was a road hazard event that let to the failure. In that case,
>> most tire companies don't cover the damage (but some companies may
>> cover road hazard damage), so you'll need to enquire with a Michelin
>> dealer.
>>
>> Pete Masterson
>> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
>> aeonix1@mac. com
>> On the road at Idaho Springs, CO
>>
>> On Sep 8, 2008, at 10:21 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:
>>
>>> you guys should find a trucker or trucking company to buy your tires
>>> prior to 3 or 4 years of age. rotating out a set every year or so
>>> will put new one on the front of your bus and run the tread off the
>>> used tires. its a green thing to do because the tread will be
>>> used up
>>> and the casing will be good for a retread. Tire Jobbers, can set you
>>> up with good credit for rotating out your used tires. I screw cords
>>> up jumping curbs and potholes, kinda doubt it is a Mfg prorate
>>> thing.
>>>
>>> GregO'Connor
>>> 94ptRomolandCa
>>>
>>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>> , "Ross"
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Just a note about reporting the "failure". The request by the NHTSA
>>>> (national highway traffic safety assoc.) is for all failures, not
>>> just
>>>> blow-outs. In the requested information, there is a line
>>>> "Nature of the reported failure (slow leak,blow-out, worn etc)"
>>> This
>>>> can be important for the safety of all BlueBirds and all RV's
>>>> (especially those using 315 tires)
>>>> Ross
>>>> 2006 450 LXi
>>>> Here is the information:
>>>>
>>> http://nhthqnwws112 .odi.nhtsa. dot.gov/acms/ docservlet/
>> Artemis/Public/ P
>> <http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ac...t/Artemis/
>> Public/P>
>>> ursuits/2008/ RQ/INIM-RQ08004- 29624.pdf
>>>>
>>>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>> , "Randy Merrill"
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> The left front tire on my coach has a broken cord. The tread is
>>> uneven.
>>>>> I am getting the tire replaced next week before I head out on a
>>> 1,500
>>>>> mile trip. The tire only has 27,000 miles on it. Does anyone know
>>> if
>>>>> Michelin has a warranty on tires? Has anyone else had a problem
>>> with
>>>>> cord breakage on Michelins?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Randy Merrill
>>>>> 2003 40'
>>>>> Ocala, FL
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date:
>> 9/5/2008 7:05 PM
>>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date:
> 9/5/2008 7:05 PM
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Gregory OConnor]

I think cords get screwed on rv tires because drivers make
stationary turns with the steers and park with that stress between
the plys for months. Owner operator pro drivers pull forward then
back after final turn to set the drive axle tires inline and steer
tires relaxed prior to parking.

John, I just finished 12 months and aprox 20,000 miles with used
(off my bus) 7 year old 12R's on my dump truck. I go off road and
overload them often. they have 6 months to go. I think you gotta do
the math and calc out a new set every 8 years. the advantage of
rotating out a set is two fold. 1- you get about $200. to $300. for
a set(2 tires) of 3,4 year old used tires @ 80% thread. 2- you will
always run less than 2 year young tires on the steer.

To replace all 6 every 8 years,
6 tires @$425 per =$2550. / 8years = $315 per the year.

to replace a pair every 30 months
2 tires @425.per = $850 -credit for used 200.=650 / 2.5 years =$260
per year.

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
wrote:
>
> Question. I know that it is recommended to not run tires older
then 8
> to 10 years maximum. Approximately how many miles are these tires
> good for? I haven't heard that mentioned. If a guy runs about
10K
> per year can he expect to run out of tread long before the years
add
> up? I don't typically get more then 35k on car tires I have no
idea
> what to expect on the MH. I of course understand there are all
kinds
> of variables to consider but as compared to a car what do you
figure
> for tread life on the tires you run on your BB'ds?
> John Heckman
> central Pa
> 1973 FC
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > you guys should find a trucker or trucking company to buy your
> tires
> > prior to 3 or 4 years of age. rotating out a set every year or
so
> > will put new one on the front of your bus and run the tread off
> the
> > used tires. its a green thing to do because the tread will be
used
> up
> > and the casing will be good for a retread. Tire Jobbers, can
set
> you
> > up with good credit for rotating out your used tires. I screw
cords
> > up jumping curbs and potholes, kinda doubt it is a Mfg prorate
> thing.
> >
> > GregO'Connor
> > 94ptRomolandCa
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ross"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > Just a note about reporting the "failure". The request by the
> NHTSA
> > > (national highway traffic safety assoc.) is for all failures,
not
> > just
> > > blow-outs. In the requested information, there is a line
> > > "Nature of the reported failure (slow leak,blow-out, worn
etc)"
> > This
> > > can be important for the safety of all BlueBirds and all RV's
> > > (especially those using 315 tires)
> > > Ross
> > > 2006 450 LXi
> > > Here is the information:
> > >
> >
>
http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ac...is/Public/
P
> > ursuits/2008/RQ/INIM-RQ08004-29624.pdf
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Merrill"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > >
> > > > The left front tire on my coach has a broken cord. The tread
is
> > uneven.
> > > > I am getting the tire replaced next week before I head out
on a
> > 1,500
> > > > mile trip. The tire only has 27,000 miles on it. Does anyone
> know
> > if
> > > > Michelin has a warranty on tires? Has anyone else had a
problem
> > with
> > > > cord breakage on Michelins?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Randy Merrill
> > > > 2003 40'
> > > > Ocala, FL
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[David Brady]

Makes sense, but dumping air and lowering landing gear such that
the coach weight is removed from the axles goes a long way to relieving
stresses in bound up tires.

David Brady
'02 LXi, NV

Gregory OConnor wrote:
>
> I think cords get screwed on rv tires because drivers make
> stationary turns with the steers and park with that stress between
> the plys for months. Owner operator pro drivers pull forward then
> back after final turn to set the drive axle tires inline and steer
> tires relaxed prior to parking.
>
> John, I just finished 12 months and aprox 20,000 miles with used
> (off my bus) 7 year old 12R's on my dump truck. I go off road and
> overload them often. they have 6 months to go. I think you gotta do
> the math and calc out a new set every 8 years. the advantage of
> rotating out a set is two fold. 1- you get about $200. to $300. for
> a set(2 tires) of 3,4 year old used tires @ 80% thread. 2- you will
> always run less than 2 year young tires on the steer.
>
> To replace all 6 every 8 years,
> 6 tires @$425 per =$2550. / 8years = $315 per the year.
>
> to replace a pair every 30 months
> 2 tires @425.per = $850 -credit for used 200.=650 / 2.5 years =$260
> per year.
>
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> , "bubblerboy64"
> wrote:
> >
> > Question. I know that it is recommended to not run tires older
> then 8
> > to 10 years maximum. Approximately how many miles are these tires
> > good for? I haven't heard that mentioned. If a guy runs about
> 10K
> > per year can he expect to run out of tread long before the years
> add
> > up? I don't typically get more then 35k on car tires I have no
> idea
> > what to expect on the MH. I of course understand there are all
> kinds
> > of variables to consider but as compared to a car what do you
> figure
> > for tread life on the tires you run on your BB'ds?
> > John Heckman
> > central Pa
> > 1973 FC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > you guys should find a trucker or trucking company to buy your
> > tires
> > > prior to 3 or 4 years of age. rotating out a set every year or
> so
> > > will put new one on the front of your bus and run the tread off
> > the
> > > used tires. its a green thing to do because the tread will be
> used
> > up
> > > and the casing will be good for a retread. Tire Jobbers, can
> set
> > you
> > > up with good credit for rotating out your used tires. I screw
> cords
> > > up jumping curbs and potholes, kinda doubt it is a Mfg prorate
> > thing.
> > >
> > > GregO'Connor
> > > 94ptRomolandCa
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> , "Ross"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Just a note about reporting the "failure". The request by the
> > NHTSA
> > > > (national highway traffic safety assoc.) is for all failures,
> not
> > > just
> > > > blow-outs. In the requested information, there is a line
> > > > "Nature of the reported failure (slow leak,blow-out, worn
> etc)"
> > > This
> > > > can be important for the safety of all BlueBirds and all RV's
> > > > (especially those using 315 tires)
> > > > Ross
> > > > 2006 450 LXi
> > > > Here is the information:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ac...is/Public/
> <http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ac...is/Public/>
> P
> > > ursuits/2008/RQ/INIM-RQ08004-29624.pdf
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> , "Randy Merrill"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > The left front tire on my coach has a broken cord. The tread
> is
> > > uneven.
> > > > > I am getting the tire replaced next week before I head out
> on a
> > > 1,500
> > > > > mile trip. The tire only has 27,000 miles on it. Does anyone
> > know
> > > if
> > > > > Michelin has a warranty on tires? Has anyone else had a
> problem
> > > with
> > > > > cord breakage on Michelins?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Randy Merrill
> > > > > 2003 40'
> > > > > Ocala, FL
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 7:05
PM
>



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 7:05
PM

[Neil & Pat]

Hi Pete, David, Greg, Randy and all else who have been
following this thread. You
called for a tire engineer to make input into this subject; well I have been
doing that for 36 years now and also happen to own and operate a Wanderlodge
(PT-36 ) for the past 12 years and have written extensively on the subject of
RV safety in my book on the subject as well as respond to many of the tire
questions posed on this and other forums.
Perhaps I can help.

The original question was re: a broken belt (actually shifted) on a
Michelin tire with the thought was this a problem on the Michelin tires and would
it be subject to warranty. At 27k miles the tire problem in
question is almost certainly the result of a “road hazard” either a
rock, shoulder drop off, hitting a curb or possibly even improper usage of “chocks”
for leveling or other purposes.
Had it been a manufacturing problem it would have shown up much before
that time. You did receive proper
advice in that this is not a warrantable condition by the manufacturer but
often dealers do provide “road hazard” protection as a service to their
customers.

This is one of the major differences between truck tires and those used
on automobiles; in order to carry heavy loads much higher pressures are used
and the tire is normally operated at a lower deflection rating. On trucks the deflection of the
sidewall when normally inflated is on average 8% by design when it is properly
inflated for the load carried, in contrast on an automobile tire the deflection
is approximately 12%, thus, yielding a smoother ride and a tire less
susceptible to impact loads as mentioned above. For your interest aviation tires actually operate at 32%
deflection to carry the immense loads involved but do so with a duty cycle
limited to a few seconds. The “hoop
strength” of the belt package” is under immense tension from the inflation of
the tire becoming more and more rigid and unyielding as pressure goes up making
the tire much more critical to this type of abuse. So for our RVs we have a quandary, RVs are the only vehicles
on the road, which operate at 100% of the capability 100% of the time making their
safe operation somewhat precarious.
We must carry the correct (high) amount of air pressure to carry the
load (at the correct deflection rate) but should not exceed that pressure or
operate below the required amount.
Higher pressure than required will yield decreased steering power,
braking power, higher impact type damage as well as decrease life; too low a
pressure will result in over deflection, hotter running temperatures (possibly
destructive), poor handling, greatly reduced life and the potential for catastrophic
premature failure. Take your pick,
but none of these options are very appealing to me.

The above realities of life is the reason why the tire manufacturers,
the RVSEF and myself all repeatedly attend and lecture at rallies and anywhere
RVers gather to spread the word that RVs are different and incur considerably
more operator responsibilities from the owner/operators. It is absolutely essential that you
have your RV weighed properly wheel by wheel to assure that none are overloaded
and then and only then determine the correct pressure for your specific RV
under the conditions you operate it.
Plain and simple there is no other way.

Always happy to be of assistance:

Neil LeKander

Author, The Rver’s Ultimate Survial
Guide

http://www.rvsafetyinfo.com

less likely to crush to the wheel rim,
possibly protecting the tire

from pinching damage, but the high pressure would also place the tire

under tension pressure ... so???



Any tire engineers out there?



Pete Masterson

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

NEIL:
Aint it safest just to fill air to whatever MAX it says on the
tire????? Anyway...that's what I've done on my BIRD and my car for
umpteen years.......
Regards,
Hank
90SP36

PS I have 12R22.5 Bridgestones on the BIRD and Goodyears on the
Honda toad.










--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Neil & Pat"
wrote:
>
> Hi Pete, David, Greg, Randy and all else who have been following
this
> thread. You called for a tire engineer to make input into this
subject;
> well I have been doing that for 36 years now and also happen to own
and
> operate a Wanderlodge (PT-36 ) for the past 12 years and have
written
> extensively on the subject of RV safety in my book on the subject
as well as
> respond to many of the tire questions posed on this and other
forums.
> Perhaps I can help.
>
> The original question was re: a broken belt (actually shifted) on a
Michelin
> tire with the thought was this a problem on the Michelin tires and
would it
> be subject to warranty. At 27k miles the tire problem in question
is
> almost certainly the result of a "road hazard" either a rock,
shoulder drop
> off, hitting a curb or possibly even improper usage of "chocks" for
leveling
> or other purposes. Had it been a manufacturing problem it would
have shown
> up much before that time. You did receive proper advice in that
this is not
> a warrantable condition by the manufacturer but often dealers do
provide
> "road hazard" protection as a service to their customers.
>
> This is one of the major differences between truck tires and those
used on
> automobiles; in order to carry heavy loads much higher pressures
are used
> and the tire is normally operated at a lower deflection rating. On
trucks
> the deflection of the sidewall when normally inflated is on average
8% by
> design when it is properly inflated for the load carried, in
contrast on an
> automobile tire the deflection is approximately 12%, thus, yielding
a
> smoother ride and a tire less susceptible to impact loads as
mentioned
> above. For your interest aviation tires actually operate at 32%
deflection
> to carry the immense loads involved but do so with a duty cycle
limited to a
> few seconds. The "hoop strength" of the belt package" is under
immense
> tension from the inflation of the tire becoming more and more rigid
and
> unyielding as pressure goes up making the tire much more critical
to this
> type of abuse. So for our RVs we have a quandary, RVs are the only
vehicles
> on the road, which operate at 100% of the capability 100% of the
time making
> their safe operation somewhat precarious. We must carry the
correct (high)
> amount of air pressure to carry the load (at the correct deflection
rate)
> but should not exceed that pressure or operate below the required
amount.
> Higher pressure than required will yield decreased steering power,
braking
> power, higher impact type damage as well as decrease life; too low a
> pressure will result in over deflection, hotter running temperatures
> (possibly destructive), poor handling, greatly reduced life and the
> potential for catastrophic premature failure. Take your pick, but
none of
> these options are very appealing to me.
>
> The above realities of life is the reason why the tire
manufacturers, the
> RVSEF and myself all repeatedly attend and lecture at rallies and
anywhere
> RVers gather to spread the word that RVs are different and incur
> considerably more operator responsibilities from the
owner/operators. It is
> absolutely essential that you have your RV weighed properly wheel
by wheel
> to assure that none are overloaded and then and only then determine
the
> correct pressure for your specific RV under the conditions you
operate it.
> Plain and simple there is no other way.
>
> Always happy to be of assistance:
>
> Neil LeKander
> Author, The Rver's Ultimate Survial Guide
> http://www.rvsafetyinfo.com
>
> less likely to crush to the wheel rim, possibly protecting the tire
> from pinching damage, but the high pressure would also place the
tire
> under tension pressure ... so???
>
> Any tire engineers out there?
>
> Pete Masterson
>

[David Brady]

Thanks Neil, that helps a great deal. Glad to see you here
on this list. Just a couple of questions:

1) can I measure "deflection"?
2) does "deflection" change as the tire rotates at speed?
3) sounds like the sole purpose of tire pressure is to maintain
the correct deflection?
4) if I were able to dynamically adjust runtime tire pressures,
would optimum tire life/performance be achieved by maintaining
the correct deflection under all ambient operating conditions?

Thanks,
David Brady
'02 LXi, LV

Neil & Pat wrote:
>
> * Hi Pete, David, Greg, Randy and all else who have been following
> this thread. * You called for a tire engineer to make input into this
> subject; well I have been doing that for 36 years now and also happen
> to own and operate a Wanderlodge (PT-36 ) for the past 12 years and
> have written extensively on the subject of RV safety in my book on the
> subject as well as respond to many of the tire questions posed on this
> and other forums. Perhaps I can help.
>
> The original question was re: a broken belt (actually shifted) on a
> Michelin tire with the thought was this a problem on the Michelin
> tires and would it be subject to warranty. At 27k miles the tire
> problem in question is almost certainly the result of a “road hazard”
> either a rock, shoulder drop off, hitting a curb or possibly even
> improper usage of “chocks” for leveling or other purposes. Had it been
> a manufacturing problem it would have shown up much before that time.
> You did receive proper advice in that this is not a warrantable
> condition by the manufacturer but often dealers do provide “road
> hazard” protection as a service to their customers.
>
> This is one of the major differences between truck tires and those
> used on automobiles; in order to carry heavy loads much higher
> pressures are used and the tire is normally operated at a lower
> deflection rating. On trucks the deflection of the sidewall when
> normally inflated is on average 8% by design when it is properly
> inflated for the load carried, in contrast on an automobile tire the
> deflection is approximately 12%, thus, yielding a smoother ride and a
> tire less susceptible to impact loads as mentioned above. For your
> interest aviation tires actually operate at 32% deflection to carry
> the immense loads involved but do so with a duty cycle limited to a
> few seconds. The “hoop strength” of the belt package” is under immense
> tension from the inflation of the tire becoming more and more rigid
> and unyielding as pressure goes up making the tire much more critical
> to this type of abuse. So for our RVs we have a quandary, RVs are the
> only vehicles on the road, which operate at 100% of the capability
> 100% of the time making their safe operation somewhat precarious. We
> must carry the correct (high) amount of air pressure to carry the load
> (at the correct deflection rate) but should not exceed that pressure
> or operate below the required amount. Higher pressure than required
> will yield decreased steering power, braking power, higher impact type
> damage as well as decrease life; too low a pressure will result in
> over deflection, hotter running temperatures (possibly destructive) ,
> poor handling, greatly reduced life and the potential for catastrophic
> premature failure. Take your pick, but none of these options are very
> appealing to me.
>
> The above realities of life is the reason why the tire manufacturers,
> the RVSEF and myself all repeatedly attend and lecture at rallies and
> anywhere RVers gather to spread the word that RVs are different and
> incur considerably more operator responsibilities from the
> owner/operators. It is absolutely essential that you have your RV
> weighed properly wheel by wheel to assure that none are overloaded and
> then and only then determine the correct pressure for your specific RV
> under the conditions you operate it. Plain and simple there is no
> other way.
>
> Always happy to be of assistance:
>
> */ Neil LeKander /*
>
> */ Author, The Rver’s Ultimate Survial Guide /*
>
> */ http://www.rvsafetyinfo. com /*
>
> less likely to crush to the wheel rim, possibly protecting the tire
> from pinching damage, but the high pressure would also place the tire
> under tension pressure ... so???
>
> Any tire engineers out there?
>
> Pete Masterson
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 7:05
PM
>



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 7:05
PM

[Hisham Amaral]

David I found this link to be very good at answering some of the question I had about trucktires. I would like to share it with the group. Please discard if it is an information overload. Hope that your trip to the West Coast was good and enjoyable, our was the best ever. We will meet at one of the riles some day soon. http://www.goodyear.com/truck/pdf/radial..._All_V.pdf Hisham & Sue Amaral 97 WLWB 43 W. Bloomfield, MI --- On Tue, 9/9/08, David Brady wrote: From: David Brady Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Broken Cord on Michelin Tire To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 1:39 PM Thanks Neil, that helps a great deal. Glad to see you here on this list. Just a couple of questions: 1) can I measure "deflection"? 2) does "deflection" change as the tire rotates at speed? 3) sounds like the sole purpose of tire pressure is to maintain the correct deflection? 4) if I were able to dynamically adjust runtime tire pressures, would optimum tire life/performance be achieved by maintaining the correct deflection under all ambient operating conditions? Thanks, David Brady '02 LXi, LV Neil & Pat wrote: > > * Hi Pete, David, Greg, Randy and all else who have been following > this thread. * You called for a tire engineer to make input into this > subject; well I have been doing that for 36 years now and also happen > to own and operate a Wanderlodge (PT-36 ) for the past 12 years and > have written extensively on the subject of RV safety in my book on the > subject as well as respond to many of the tire questions posed on this > and other forums. Perhaps I can help. > > The original question was re: a broken belt (actually shifted) on a > Michelin tire with the thought was this a problem on the Michelin > tires and would it be subject to warranty. At 27k miles the tire > problem in question is almost certainly the result of a “road hazard” > either a rock, shoulder drop off, hitting a curb or possibly even > improper usage of “chocks” for leveling or other purposes. Had it been > a manufacturing problem it would have shown up much before that time. > You did receive proper advice in that this is not a warrantable > condition by the manufacturer but often dealers do provide “road > hazard” protection as a service to their customers. > > This is one of the major differences between truck tires and those > used on automobiles; in order to carry heavy loads much higher > pressures are used and the tire is normally operated at a lower > deflection rating. On trucks the deflection of the sidewall when > normally inflated is on average 8% by design when it is properly > inflated for the load carried, in contrast on an automobile tire the > deflection is approximately 12%, thus, yielding a smoother ride and a > tire less susceptible to impact loads as mentioned above. For your > interest aviation tires actually operate at 32% deflection to carry > the immense loads involved but do so with a duty cycle limited to a > few seconds. The “hoop strength” of the belt package” is under immense > tension from the inflation of the tire becoming more and more rigid > and unyielding as pressure goes up making the tire much more critical > to this type of abuse. So for our RVs we have a quandary, RVs are the > only vehicles on the road, which operate at 100% of the capability > 100% of the time making their safe operation somewhat precarious. We > must carry the correct (high) amount of air pressure to carry the load > (at the correct deflection rate) but should not exceed that pressure > or operate below the required amount. Higher pressure than required > will yield decreased steering power, braking power, higher impact type > damage as well as decrease life; too low a pressure will result in > over deflection, hotter running temperatures (possibly destructive) , > poor handling, greatly reduced life and the potential for catastrophic > premature failure. Take your pick, but none of these options are very > appealing to me. > > The above realities of life is the reason why the tire manufacturers, > the RVSEF and myself all repeatedly attend and lecture at rallies and > anywhere RVers gather to spread the word that RVs are different and > incur considerably more operator responsibilities from the > owner/operators. It is absolutely essential that you have your RV > weighed properly wheel by wheel to assure that none are overloaded and > then and only then determine the correct pressure for your specific RV > under the conditions you operate it. Plain and simple there is no > other way. > > Always happy to be of assistance: > > */ Neil LeKander /* > > */ Author, The Rver’s Ultimate Survial Guide /* > > */ http://www.rvsafetyinfo. com /* > > less likely to crush to the wheel rim, possibly protecting the tire > from pinching damage, but the high pressure would also place the tire > under tension pressure ... so??? > > Any tire engineers out there? > > Pete Masterson > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 7:05 PM > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 7:05 PM ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:WanderlodgeForum-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:WanderlodgeForum-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Neil & Pat]

Hank, there is no question that under inflation is
significantly more harmful (and dangerous) that over inflation. However, as I listed in my earlier
response there are numerous problems with over inflation including some which
potentially dangerous or expensive or adversely affect ride comfort. Note the maximum pressure on the sidewall
is the correct pressure only when the tire is loaded to the maximum load also
shown on the sidewall. In your
case you obviously have gotten by with operating at the maximum and have
accepted whatever negative that procedure brings. I sincerely hope that your good luck continues into the
future.

Regards,

Neil

Author, The Rver’s Ultimate Survival
Guide

http://www.rvsafetyinfo.com

-----Original Message-----

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Henry Jay Hannigan

Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008
9:55 AM

To:
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re:
Broken Cord on Michelin Tire

NEIL:

Aint it safest just to fill air to whatever MAX it says on the

tire????? Anyway...that's what I've done on my BIRD and my car for

umpteen years.......

Regards,

Hank

90SP36



PS I have 12R22.5 Bridgestones on the BIRD and Goodyears on the

Honda toad.



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
"Neil & Pat" >

wrote:

>

> Hi Pete, David, Greg, Randy and all else who have been following

this

> thread. You called for a tire engineer to make input into this

subject;

> well I have been doing that for 36 years now and also happen to own

and

> operate a Wanderlodge (PT-36 ) for the past 12 years and have

written

> extensively on the subject of RV safety in my book on the subject

as well as

> respond to many of the tire questions posed on this and other

forums.

> Perhaps I can help.

>

> The original question was re: a broken belt (actually shifted) on a

Michelin

> tire with the thought was this a problem on the Michelin tires and

would it

> be subject to warranty. At 27k miles the tire problem in question

is

> almost certainly the result of a "road hazard" either a rock,

shoulder drop

> off, hitting a curb or possibly even improper usage of "chocks"
for

leveling

> or other purposes. Had it been a manufacturing problem it would

have shown

> up much before that time. You did receive proper advice in that

this is not

> a warrantable condition by the manufacturer but often dealers do

provide

> "road hazard" protection as a service to their customers.

>

> This is one of the major differences between truck tires and those

used on

> automobiles; in order to carry heavy loads much higher pressures

are used

> and the tire is normally operated at a lower deflection rating. On

trucks

> the deflection of the sidewall when normally inflated is on average

8% by

> design when it is properly inflated for the load carried, in

contrast on an

> automobile tire the deflection is approximately 12%, thus, yielding

a

> smoother ride and a tire less susceptible to impact loads as

mentioned

> above. For your interest aviation tires actually operate at 32%

deflection

> to carry the immense loads involved but do so with a duty cycle

limited to a

> few seconds. The "hoop strength" of the belt package" is
under

immense

> tension from the inflation of the tire becoming more and more rigid

and

> unyielding as pressure goes up making the tire much more critical

to this

> type of abuse. So for our RVs we have a quandary, RVs are the only

vehicles

> on the road, which operate at 100% of the capability 100% of the

time making

> their safe operation somewhat precarious. We must carry the

correct (high)

> amount of air pressure to carry the load (at the correct deflection

rate)

> but should not exceed that pressure or operate below the required

amount.

> Higher pressure than required will yield decreased steering power,

braking

> power, higher impact type damage as well as decrease life; too low a

> pressure will result in over deflection, hotter running temperatures

> (possibly destructive), poor handling, greatly reduced life and the

> potential for catastrophic premature failure. Take your pick, but

none of

> these options are very appealing to me.

>

> The above realities of life is the reason why the tire

manufacturers, the

> RVSEF and myself all repeatedly attend and lecture at rallies and

anywhere

> RVers gather to spread the word that RVs are different and incur

> considerably more operator responsibilities from the

owner/operators. It is

> absolutely essential that you have your RV weighed properly wheel

by wheel

> to assure that none are overloaded and then and only then determine

the

> correct pressure for your specific RV under the conditions you

operate it.

> Plain and simple there is no other way.

>

> Always happy to be of assistance:

>

> Neil LeKander

> Author, The Rver's Ultimate Survial Guide

> http://www.rvsafetyinfo.com

>

> less likely to crush to the wheel rim, possibly protecting the tire

> from pinching damage, but the high pressure would also place the

tire

> under tension pressure ... so???

>

> Any tire engineers out there?

>

> Pete Masterson

>

[David Brady]

Thanks Hisham,

That's great information. We're still working our way back home;
currently in Las Vegas. Gonna
be 95deg F today, better get the sweaters. Glad you had a great trip and
hope to meet up one
of these days.

Best,
David, Suzana, and Danny
'02 LXi, NV

Hisham Amaral wrote:
> David
>
> I found this link to be very good at answering some of the question I
> had about truck tires. I would like to share it with the group. Please
> discard if it is an information overload.
> Hope that your trip to the West Coast was good and enjoyable, our was
> the best ever. We will meet at one of the riles some day soon.
>
> http://www.goodyear .com/truck/ pdf/radialretser v/Retread_ All_V.pdf
> <http://www.goodyear.com/truck/pdf/radial..._All_V.pdf>
>
> Hisham & Sue Amaral
> 97 WLWB 43
> W. Bloomfield, MI
>
> --- On *Tue, 9/9/08, David Brady //* wrote:
>
> From: David Brady
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Broken Cord on Michelin Tire
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 1:39 PM
>
> Thanks Neil, that helps a great deal. Glad to see you here
> on this list. Just a couple of questions:
>
> 1) can I measure "deflection" ?
> 2) does "deflection" change as the tire rotates at speed?
> 3) sounds like the sole purpose of tire pressure is to maintain
> the correct deflection?
> 4) if I were able to dynamically adjust runtime tire pressures,
> would optimum tire life/performance be achieved by maintaining
> the correct deflection under all ambient operating conditions?
>
> Thanks,
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, LV
>
> Neil & Pat wrote:
> >
> > * Hi Pete, David, Greg, Randy and all else who have been following
> > this thread. * You called for a tire engineer to make input into this
> > subject; well I have been doing that for 36 years now and also happen
> > to own and operate a Wanderlodge (PT-36 ) for the past 12 years and
> > have written extensively on the subject of RV safety in my book on the
> > subject as well as respond to many of the tire questions posed on this
> > and other forums. Perhaps I can help.
> >
> > The original question was re: a broken belt (actually shifted) on a
> > Michelin tire with the thought was this a problem on the Michelin
> > tires and would it be subject to warranty. At 27k miles the tire
> > problem in question is almost certainly the result of a “road hazard”
> > either a rock, shoulder drop off, hitting a curb or possibly even
> > improper usage of “chocks” for leveling or other purposes. Had it been
>
> > a manufacturing problem it would have shown up much before that time.
> > You did receive proper advice in that this is not a warrantable
> > condition by the manufacturer but often dealers do provide “road
> > hazard” protection as a service to their customers.
> >
> > This is one of the major differences between truck tires and those
> > used on automobiles; in order to carry heavy loads much higher
> > pressures are used and the tire is normally operated at a lower
> > deflection rating. On trucks the deflection of the sidewall when
> > normally inflated is on average 8% by design when it is properly
> > inflated for the load carried, in contrast on an automobile tire the
> > deflection is approximately 12%, thus, yielding a smoother ride and a
> > tire less susceptible to impact loads as mentioned above. For your
> > interest aviation tires actually operate at 32% deflection to carry
> > the immense loads involved but do so with a duty cycle limited to a
> > few seconds. The “hoop strength” of the belt package” is under
> immense
> > tension from the inflation of the tire becoming more and more rigid
> > and unyielding as pressure goes up making the tire much more critical
> > to this type of abuse. So for our RVs we have a quandary, RVs are the
> > only vehicles on the road, which operate at 100% of the capability
> > 100% of the time making their safe operation somewhat precarious. We
> > must carry the correct (high) amount of air pressure to carry the load
> > (at the correct deflection rate) but should not exceed that pressure
> > or operate below the required amount. Higher pressure than required
> > will yield decreased steering power, braking power, higher impact type
> > damage as well as decrease life; too low a pressure will result in
> > over deflection, hotter running temperatures (possibly destructive) ,
> > poor handling, greatly reduced life and the potential for catastrophic
> > premature failure. Take your pick, but none of these options are very
> > appealing to me.
> >
> > The above realities of life is the reason why the tire manufacturers,
> > the RVSEF and myself all repeatedly attend and lecture at rallies and
> > anywhere RVers gather to spread the word that RVs are different and
> > incur considerably more operator responsibilities from the
> > owner/operators. It is absolutely essential that you have your RV
> > weighed properly wheel by wheel to assure that none are overloaded and
> > then and only then determine the correct pressure for your specific RV
> > under the conditions you operate it. Plain and simple there is no
> > other way.
> >
> > Always happy to be of assistance:
> >
> > */ Neil LeKander /*
> >
> > */ Author, The Rver’s Ultimate Survial Guide /*
> >
> > */ http://www.rvsafetyinfo. com /*
> >
> > less likely to crush to the wheel rim, possibly protecting the tire
> > from pinching damage, but the high pressure would also place the tire
> > under tension pressure ... so???
> >
> > Any tire engineers out there?
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date:
9/5/2008
> 7:05 PM
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008
7:05
> PM
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 7:05
PM
>



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 6:00
AM