Maybe this will be a good approach?

[Robin]

I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there
mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach
side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2
Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the
same test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and
ground. Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there
is the problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for
more than 1 bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this
procedure make sense?

John Churchill




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Wheeler" wrote:
>
> John,
>
> There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They are
> involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on with
> shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot" side.
> If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be there even
> with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the neutrals in
> order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or better way,but
> this was the only way I could think of.
>
> - Chuck Wheeler-
> 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
>
>
> _____
>
> From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robin
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping
> way
>
>
> Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity indicators
> to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed and the GFCI
> still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I plug it into
> either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do not own a 50 amp
> cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off including individual
> circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp disconnect breakers. If I
> switch the master shore power switch to off, gen or 50 amp it does not trip.
> It does trip if this switch is set at 30 amps. If I start with everything at
> off, then gradually flip switches it seems to barely hold, but if the
> switches are on and I plug in the cord, the GFCI trips, suggesting I am
> right at the trip point.
>
> One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the past,
> but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the coach.
>
> I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting technique for this
> problem.
>
> John Churchill
> 1980 FC33
> LARGE MARGE
> Sanibel, FL
>

[Ernie Ekberg]

John, Ralph came up with the hot skin test a few years back. He is the best one to comment on that but he is currently on a fishing trip and has no internet. He will be back on Friday. Ernie Ekberg 83PT40 Wanderlodge Weatherford, Tx http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/erni...gandrepair --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Robin wrote: From: Robin Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 5:05 AM I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2 Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the same test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and ground. Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is the problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more than 1 bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure make sense? John Churchill --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Chuck Wheeler" wrote: > > John, > > There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They are > involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on with > shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot" side. > If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be there even > with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the neutrals in > order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or better way,but > this was the only way I could think of. > > - Chuck Wheeler- > 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX > > > _____ > > From: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com" > [mailto:"WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"] On Behalf Of Robin > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM > To: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com" > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping > way > > > Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity indicators > to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed and the GFCI > still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I plug it into > either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do not own a 50 amp > cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off including individual > circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp disconnect breakers. If I > switch the master shore power switch to off, gen or 50 amp it does not trip. > It does trip if this switch is set at 30 amps. If I start with everything at > off, then gradually flip switches it seems to barely hold, but if the > switches are on and I plug in the cord, the GFCI trips, suggesting I am > right at the trip point. > > One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the past, > but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the coach. > > I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting technique for this > problem. > > John Churchill > 1980 FC33 > LARGE MARGE > Sanibel, FL >

[Chuck Wheeler]

That should work, and was what I was trying to say...guess I do not write too clearly. The reason I disconnected more than one at a time was that I had several small "leaks" adding up. The worst was the front heater, but that is when I discovered that the various monitors all cause a little resistance. I had a red marker with me and when I discovered a circuit that caused the resistance to increase when disconnected I put a red mark on it. When finished I had three circuits open, the heater and the two that fed the power monitor and shore power. The heater and shore power monitor I could clear with repairs, the power monitor by design will draw a small ground current for it's proper operation but this is less than .5ma which is well below the GFI trip point. Since you have your power monitor out, I would think you should be able to clear it all.

- Chuck Wheeler-

1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX

---

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robin
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:06 AM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach?

I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2 Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the same test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and ground. Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is the problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more than 1 bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure make sense?

John Churchill

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Chuck Wheeler" .> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They are
> involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on with
> shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot" side.
> If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be there even
> with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the neutrals in
> order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or better way,but
> this was the only way I could think of.
>
> - Chuck Wheeler-
> 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
>
>
> _____
>
> From: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> [mailto:"WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"] On Behalf Of Robin
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
> To: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping
> way
>
>
> Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity indicators
> to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed and the GFCI
> still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I plug it into
> either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do not own a 50 amp
> cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off including individual
> circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp disconnect breakers. If I
> switch the master shore power switch to off, gen or 50 amp it does not trip.
> It does trip if this switch is set at 30 amps. If I start with everything at
> off, then gradually flip switches it seems to barely hold, but if the
> switches are on and I plug in the cord, the GFCI trips, suggesting I am
> right at the trip point.
>
> One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the past,
> but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the coach.
>
> I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting technique for this
> problem.
>
> John Churchill
> 1980 FC33
> LARGE MARGE
> Sanibel, FL
>

[GARY MINKER]

The National Electrical Code calls for a neutral bonding screw in the first disconnect or panel. Look in the disconnect or panels for this screw that is driven through the neutral bar in to the case. It is normal. Coaches are not meant to be plugged in to GFI recepticals because of this. You take a low risk removing the bolt/screw. This is why many newer units only have a 3 conductor cord. Gary --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Chuck Wheeler wrote: From: Chuck Wheeler Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 9:41 AM That should work, and was what I was trying to say...guess I do not write too clearly. The reason I disconnected more than one at a time was that I had several small "leaks" adding up. The worst was the front heater, but that is when I discovered that the various monitors all cause a little resistance. I had a red marker with me and when I discovered a circuit that caused the resistance to increase when disconnected I put a red mark on it. When finished I had three circuits open, the heater and the two that fed the power monitor and shore power. The heater and shore power monitor I could clear with repairs, the power monitor by design will draw a small ground current for it's proper operation but this is less than .5ma which is well below the GFI trip point. Since you have your power monitor out, I would think you should be able to clear it all. - Chuck Wheeler- 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Robin Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:06 AM To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach? I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2 Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the same test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and ground. Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is the problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more than 1 bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure make sense? John Churchill --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Chuck Wheeler" wrote: > > John, > > There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They are > involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on with > shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot" side. > If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be there even > with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the neutrals in > order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or better way,but > this was the only way I could think of. > > - Chuck Wheeler- > 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX > > > _____ > > From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Robin > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping > way > > > Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity indicators > to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed and the GFCI > still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I plug it into > either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do not own a 50 amp > cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off including individual > circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp disconnect breakers. If I > switch the master shore power switch to off, gen or 50 amp it does not trip. > It does trip if this switch is set at 30 amps. If I start with everything at > off, then gradually flip switches it seems to barely hold, but if the > switches are on and I plug in the cord, the GFCI trips, suggesting I am > right at the trip point. > > One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the past, > but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the coach. > > I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting technique for this > problem. > > John Churchill > 1980 FC33 > LARGE MARGE > Sanibel, FL >

[Robin]

Gary-
Thanks for the info, but I am not sure I understand the function. Isn't the NEC
just applicable to houses, etc? In a boat (which I know a bit), the neutral is
kept separate aboard and brought ashore for connection to the ground. In the
main panel of LARGE MARGE, all the whites are together on the buss bar. Are you
saying that the neutral ought to be connected to the ground on the coach? That
does not make sense to me.
John Churchill
1980 FC33


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, GARY MINKER wrote:
>
> The National Electrical Code calls for a neutral bonding screw in the first
disconnect or panel. Look in the disconnect or panels for this screw that is
driven through the neutral bar in to the case. It is normal. Coaches are not
meant to be plugged in to GFI recepticals because of this. You take a low risk
removing the bolt/screw. This is why many newer units only have a 3 conductor
cord.
> Gary
>
> --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Chuck Wheeler wrote:
>
> From: Chuck Wheeler
> Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach?
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 9:41 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That should work, and was what I was trying to say...guess
> I do not write too clearly. The reason I disconnected more than one at a
> time was that I had several small "leaks" adding up. The worst was the
> front heater, but that is when I discovered that the various monitors all
cause
> a little resistance.   I had a red marker with me and when I
> discovered a circuit that caused the resistance to increase when disconnected
I
> put a red mark on it. When finished I had three circuits open, the heater
> and the two that fed the power monitor and shore power. The heater and
> shore power monitor I could clear with repairs, the power monitor by design
will
> draw a small ground current for it's proper operation but this is less than
.5ma
> which is well below the GFI trip point. Since you have your power monitor
> out, I would think you should be able to clear it all.
>
> - Chuck
> Wheeler-
> 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
>
>
>
>
> From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of
> Robin
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:06 AM
> To:
> WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe
> this will be a good approach?
>
>
>
>
> I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there
> mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach
> side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2
> Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the
same
> test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and ground.
> Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is the
> problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more than
1
> bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure make
> sense?
>
> John Churchill
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com,
> "Chuck Wheeler" wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
>
> > There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They
> are
> > involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on
> with
> > shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot"
> side.
> > If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be
> there even
> > with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the
> neutrals in
> > order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or
> better way,but
> > this was the only way I could think of.
> >
> >
> - Chuck Wheeler-
> > 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
> >
> >
> >
> _____
> >
> > From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com]
> On Behalf Of Robin
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping
> > way
> >
> >
>
> > Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity
> indicators
> > to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed
> and the GFCI
> > still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I
> plug it into
> > either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do
> not own a 50 amp
> > cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off
> including individual
> > circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp
> disconnect breakers. If I
> > switch the master shore power switch to off,
> gen or 50 amp it does not trip.
> > It does trip if this switch is set at 30
> amps. If I start with everything at
> > off, then gradually flip switches it
> seems to barely hold, but if the
> > switches are on and I plug in the cord,
> the GFCI trips, suggesting I am
> > right at the trip point.
> >
>
> > One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the
> past,
> > but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the
> coach.
> >
> > I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting
> technique for this
> > problem.
> >
> > John Churchill
> > 1980
> FC33
> > LARGE MARGE
> > Sanibel, FL
> >
>

[Pete Masterson]

The RVIA establishes the standards for RV construction. While most of the NEC applies, the ground and neutral are to be kept separate in an RV. There is a danger than the RV frame (and in the case of a WL) and body can become energized, leading to a chance of electrocution if someone is grounded outside, is touching the body of the coach, and there is an electrical fault. That is one reason to check polarity when hooking up to a power source, reversed polarity can lead to the same dangerous situation.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Mar 29, 2009, at 5:58 PM, Robin wrote:

Gary-
Thanks for the info, but I am not sure I understand the function. Isn't the NEC just applicable to houses, etc? In a boat (which I know a bit), the neutral is kept separate aboard and brought ashore for connection to the ground. In the main panel of LARGE MARGE, all the whites are together on the buss bar. Are you saying that the neutral ought to be connected to the ground on the coach? That does not make sense to me.
John Churchill
1980 FC33


--- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", GARY MINKER wrote:

The National Electrical Code calls for a neutral bonding screw in the first disconnect or panel. Look in the disconnect or panels for this screw that is driven through the neutral bar in to the case. It is normal. Coaches are not meant to be plugged in to GFI recepticals because of this. You take a low risk removing the bolt/screw. This is why many newer units only have a 3 conductor cord.

Gary

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Chuck Wheeler wrote:

From: Chuck Wheeler

Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach?

To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"

Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 9:41 AM

That should work, and was what I was trying to say...guess

I do not write too clearly. The reason I disconnected more than one at a

time was that I had several small "leaks" adding up. The worst was the

front heater, but that is when I discovered that the various monitors all cause

a little resistance. I had a red marker with me and when I

discovered a circuit that caused the resistance to increase when disconnected I

put a red mark on it. When finished I had three circuits open, the heater

and the two that fed the power monitor and shore power. The heater and

shore power monitor I could clear with repairs, the power monitor by design will

draw a small ground current for it's proper operation but this is less than .5ma

which is well below the GFI trip point. Since you have your power monitor

out, I would think you should be able to clear it all.

- Chuck

Wheeler-

1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX

From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com

["Wanderlodge" Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of

Robin

Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:06 AM

To:

WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe

this will be a good approach?

I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there

mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach

side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2

Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the same

test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and ground.

Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is the

problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more than 1

bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure make

sense?

John Churchill

--- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com,

"Chuck Wheeler" wrote:

John,

There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They

are

involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on

with

shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot"

side.

If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be

there even

with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the

neutrals in

order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or

better way,but

this was the only way I could think of.

- Chuck Wheeler-

1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX

_____

From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com

["WanderlodgeForum@" yahoogroups. com]

On Behalf Of Robin

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM

To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping

way

Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity

indicators

to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed

and the GFCI

still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I

plug it into

either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do

not own a 50 amp

cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off

including individual

circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp

disconnect breakers. If I

switch the master shore power switch to off,

gen or 50 amp it does not trip.

It does trip if this switch is set at 30

amps. If I start with everything at

off, then gradually flip switches it

seems to barely hold, but if the

switches are on and I plug in the cord,

the GFCI trips, suggesting I am

right at the trip point.

One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the

past,

but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the

coach.

I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting

technique for this

problem.

John Churchill

1980

FC33

LARGE MARGE

Sanibel, FL

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[GARY MINKER]

Hi, I almost missed the post. I don't get to read em all. Give me a call and I can go over it all with you. Gary 561 969-9245 --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Robin wrote: From: Robin Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Maybe this will be a good approach? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 8:58 PM Gary- Thanks for the info, but I am not sure I understand the function. Isn't the NEC just applicable to houses, etc? In a boat (which I know a bit), the neutral is kept separate aboard and brought ashore for connection to the ground. In the main panel of LARGE MARGE, all the whites are together on the buss bar. Are you saying that the neutral ought to be connected to the ground on the coach? That does not make sense to me. John Churchill 1980 FC33 --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, GARY MINKER wrote: > > The National Electrical Code calls for a neutral bonding screw in the first disconnect or panel. Look in the disconnect or panels for this screw that is driven through the neutral bar in to the case. It is normal. Coaches are not meant to be plugged in to GFI recepticals because of this. You take a low risk removing the bolt/screw. This is why many newer units only have a 3 conductor cord. > Gary > > --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Chuck Wheeler wrote: > > From: Chuck Wheeler > Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach? > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 9:41 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That should work, and was what I was trying to say...guess > I do not write too clearly. The reason I disconnected more than one at a > time was that I had several small "leaks" adding up. The worst was the > front heater, but that is when I discovered that the various monitors all cause > a little resistance. I had a red marker with me and when I > discovered a circuit that caused the resistance to increase when disconnected I > put a red mark on it. When finished I had three circuits open, the heater > and the two that fed the power monitor and shore power. The heater and > shore power monitor I could clear with repairs, the power monitor by design will > draw a small ground current for it's proper operation but this is less than .5ma > which is well below the GFI trip point. Since you have your power monitor > out, I would think you should be able to clear it all. > > - Chuck > Wheeler- > 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX > > > > > From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of > Robin > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:06 AM > To: > WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe > this will be a good approach? > > > > > I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there > mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach > side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2 > Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the same > test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and ground. > Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is the > problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more than 1 > bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure make > sense? > > John Churchill > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, > "Chuck Wheeler" wrote: > > > > John, > > > > > There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They > are > > involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on > with > > shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot" > side. > > If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be > there even > > with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the > neutrals in > > order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or > better way,but > > this was the only way I could think of. > > > > > - Chuck Wheeler- > > 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com > > > [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@ yahoogroups. com] > On Behalf Of Robin > > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM > > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping > > way > > > > > > > Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity > indicators > > to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed > and the GFCI > > still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I > plug it into > > either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do > not own a 50 amp > > cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off > including individual > > circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp > disconnect breakers. If I > > switch the master shore power switch to off, > gen or 50 amp it does not trip. > > It does trip if this switch is set at 30 > amps. If I start with everything at > > off, then gradually flip switches it > seems to barely hold, but if the > > switches are on and I plug in the cord, > the GFCI trips, suggesting I am > > right at the trip point. > > > > > One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the > past, > > but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the > coach. > > > > I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting > technique for this > > problem. > > > > John Churchill > > 1980 > FC33 > > LARGE MARGE > > Sanibel, FL > > >

[GARY MINKER]

Hi Pete Reversing the polarity on a 50 amp plug in is about 99.9% impossible without tripping a breaker. A single 30 or 15 perhaps but again, the breaker kicks in. Even twin 30's is tough without blowing a breaker unless it is an old federal 2 pole with only 1 side protected which is what ran them out of business. --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Pete Masterson wrote: From: Pete Masterson Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Maybe this will be a good approach? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:30 PM The RVIA establishes the standards for RV construction. While most of the NEC applies, the ground and neutral are to be kept separate in an RV. There is a danger than the RV frame (and in the case of a WL) and body can become energized, leading to a chance of electrocution if someone is grounded outside, is touching the body of the coach, and there is an electrical fault. That is one reason to check polarity when hooking up to a power source, reversed polarity can lead to the same dangerous situation. Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA aeonix1@mac. com On Mar 29, 2009, at 5:58 PM, Robin wrote: Gary- Thanks for the info, but I am not sure I understand the function. Isn't the NEC just applicable to houses, etc? In a boat (which I know a bit), the neutral is kept separate aboard and brought ashore for connection to the ground. In the main panel of LARGE MARGE, all the whites are together on the buss bar. Are you saying that the neutral ought to be connected to the ground on the coach? That does not make sense to me. John Churchill 1980 FC33 --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, GARY MINKER wrote: The National Electrical Code calls for a neutral bonding screw in the first disconnect or panel. Look in the disconnect or panels for this screw that is driven through the neutral bar in to the case. It is normal. Coaches are not meant to be plugged in to GFI recepticals because of this. You take a low risk removing the bolt/screw. This is why many newer units only have a 3 conductor cord. Gary --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Chuck Wheeler wrote: From: Chuck Wheeler > Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach? To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 9:41 AM That should work, and was what I was trying to say...guess I do not write too clearly. The reason I disconnected more than one at a time was that I had several small "leaks" adding up. The worst was the front heater, but that is when I discovered that the various monitors all cause a little resistance. I had a red marker with me and when I discovered a circuit that caused the resistance to increase when disconnected I put a red mark on it. When finished I had three circuits open, the heater and the two that fed the power monitor and shore power. The heater and shore power monitor I could clear with repairs, the power monitor by design will draw a small ground current for it's proper operation but this is less than .5ma which is well below the GFI trip point. Since you have your power monitor out, I would think you should be able to clear it all. - Chuck Wheeler- 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Robin Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:06 AM To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach? I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2 Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the same test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and ground. Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is the problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more than 1 bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure make sense? John Churchill --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Chuck Wheeler" wrote: John, There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They are involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on with shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot" side. If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be there even with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the neutrals in order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or better way,but this was the only way I could think of. - Chuck Wheeler- 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX _____ From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:WanderlodgeF orum@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Robin Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping way Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity indicators to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed and the GFCI still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I plug it into either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do not own a 50 amp cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off including individual circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp disconnect breakers. If I switch the master shore power switch to off, gen or 50 amp it does not trip. It does trip if this switch is set at 30 amps. If I start with everything at off, then gradually flip switches it seems to barely hold, but if the switches are on and I plug in the cord, the GFCI trips, suggesting I am right at the trip point. One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the past, but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the coach. I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting technique for this problem. John Churchill 1980 FC33 LARGE MARGE Sanibel, FL ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Wanderlodg eForum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Wanderlodg eForum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:WanderlodgeF orum-digest@ yahoogroups. com mailto:WanderlodgeF orum-fullfeature d@yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: WanderlodgeForum- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/

[timvasqz]

many inverter and gensets have internal grounding to neutral paths. so if the
transfer switch does only the two hot legs an additional relay is needed to
unbond the genset or inverter ground to neutral ( if it is bonded during use). I
think Magnum has this worked out with internal relays. or that is their sales
pitch.
I was concerned about the inverter charger bonding when I added a new unit and
couldnt get a good answer so I sent the updated bus into a good boat shop for a
look over. you are not going to get a good answer here because ther are many
variables and changed configurations in these old units. and the idea of 'to
bond' or 'not to bond' while on genset/invert has no standard.

Gregory of Tim&Greg


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, GARY MINKER wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I almost missed the post. I don't get to read em all. Give me a call and I can
go over it all with you.
> Gary
> 561 969-9245
>
> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Robin wrote:
>
> From: Robin
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Maybe this will be a good approach?
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 8:58 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gary-
>
> Thanks for the info, but I am not sure I understand the function. Isn't the
NEC just applicable to houses, etc? In a boat (which I know a bit), the neutral
is kept separate aboard and brought ashore for connection to the ground. In the
main panel of LARGE MARGE, all the whites are together on the buss bar. Are you
saying that the neutral ought to be connected to the ground on the coach? That
does not make sense to me.
>
> John Churchill
>
> 1980 FC33
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, GARY MINKER
wrote:
>
> >
>
> > The National Electrical Code calls for a neutral bonding screw in the first
disconnect or panel.  Look in the disconnect or panels for this screw that is
driven through the neutral bar in to the case.  It is normal.  Coaches are not
meant to be plugged in to GFI recepticals because of this.  You take a low risk
removing the bolt/screw.  This is why many newer units only have a 3 conductor
cord.
>
> > Gary
>
> >
>
> > --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Chuck Wheeler wrote:
>
> >
>
> > From: Chuck Wheeler
>
> > Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe this will be a good approach?
>
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>
> > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 9:41 AM
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That should work, and was what I was trying to say...guess
>
> > I do not write too clearly.  The reason I disconnected more than one at a
>
> > time was that I had several small "leaks" adding up.  The worst was the
>
> > front heater, but that is when I discovered that the various monitors all
cause
>
> > a little resistance.   I had a red marker with me and when I
>
> > discovered a circuit that caused the resistance to increase when
disconnected I
>
> > put a red mark on it.  When finished I had three circuits open, the heater
>
> > and the two that fed the power monitor and shore power.  The heater and
>
> > shore power monitor I could clear with repairs, the power monitor by design
will
>
> > draw a small ground current for it's proper operation but this is less than
.5ma
>
> > which is well below the GFI trip point.  Since you have your power monitor
>
> > out, I would think you should be able to clear it all.
>
> >  
>
> > - Chuck
>
> > Wheeler-
>
> > 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
>
> >  
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>
> > [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of
>
> > Robin
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:06 AM
>
> > To:
>
> > WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Maybe
>
> > this will be a good approach?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I did a little homework and read about the "hot skin test". One post there
>
> > mentioned simply checking continuity between neutral and ground on the coach
>
> > side of the shore power plug (with the power off of course). I've got only 2
>
> > Ohms of resistance, should be infinite. Leads me to think that I can do the
same
>
> > test at the panel, checking continuity between the neutral bus bar and
ground.
>
> > Pull one white at a time, and when I finally get an open circuit, there is
the
>
> > problem. I may leave them all disconnected as I proceed to allow for more
than 1
>
> > bad circuit, checking again after reconnecting each. Does this procedure
make
>
> > sense?
>
> >
>
> > John Churchill
>
> >
>
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com,
>
> > "Chuck Wheeler" wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > John,
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > There are some active circuits even when all breakers are off. They
>
> > are
>
> > > involved in the circuit that warns you if you turn the ignition on
>
> > with
>
> > > shore power applied. Turning off the breakers only breaks the "hot"
>
> > side.
>
> > > If there is a cross between Neutral and ground it will still be
>
> > there even
>
> > > with the breakers off. That is why I had to disconnect the
>
> > neutrals in
>
> > > order to isolate my problem. There may be a different or
>
> > better way,but
>
> > > this was the only way I could think of.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > - Chuck Wheeler-
>
> > > 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > _____
>
> > >
>
> > > From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>
> > >
>
> > [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@ yahoogroups. com]
>
> > On Behalf Of Robin
>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
>
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>
> > >
>
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] gfci still tripping
>
> > > way
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Well, I've completely removed both my PowerWatch reverse polarity
>
> > indicators
>
> > > to re-do them. Decided to check the coach with them removed
>
> > and the GFCI
>
> > > still trips when I plug the 30 amp cord in. It trips when I
>
> > plug it into
>
> > > either of the two 30 amp receptacles on the coach. (I do
>
> > not own a 50 amp
>
> > > cord.) Trips even though all the breakers are off
>
> > including individual
>
> > > circuits, main breaker and the separate 30 amp
>
> > disconnect breakers. If I
>
> > > switch the master shore power switch to off,
>
> > gen or 50 amp it does not trip.
>
> > > It does trip if this switch is set at 30
>
> > amps. If I start with everything at
>
> > > off, then gradually flip switches it
>
> > seems to barely hold, but if the
>
> > > switches are on and I plug in the cord,
>
> > the GFCI trips, suggesting I am
>
> > > right at the trip point.
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > One possible problem area is the genset which has been replaced in the
>
> > past,
>
> > > but does not ever seem to have been run prior to my getting the
>
> > coach.
>
> > >
>
> > > I am looking for advice on the proper troubleshooting
>
> > technique for this
>
> > > problem.
>
> > >
>
> > > John Churchill
>
> > > 1980
>
> > FC33
>
> > > LARGE MARGE
>
> > > Sanibel, FL
>
> > >
>
> >
>