NADA Wanderlodge Listings

[DonB]

David, since you apparently think NADA listings are a good idea, when you get hold of them are you going to try to get them to list your Prevost Vantare? I would suspect there are more of them sold by dealers than there are BBs.

[davidbrady]

Their figures for a 1962 MGA are accurate. They're not precise, but they're accurate. IOW's, there's a huge range from lo to hi retail, but I don't think that's a problem for us.

Ron, true, I can only use what's available to me and that's "asking prices" with the huge assumption that the true sales figures aren't far off. As you point out in some cases that's a crazy assumption, but the proof is in the final figures. The ballpark ranges I came up with pass the muster test. They seem reasonable. (Like a Fermi Estimation problem: the crazy hi prices cancel out the crazy low ones). I can only guess that since Prevost Converters and Newell always sold direct that they never had a dealer network to funnel info to NADA. I like your force field analogy.

Don, it totally occurred to me that NADA is a collection of "member dealers" and they may not be willing to accept data from anyone else. There's one way to find out... get them on the phone. No, I'm not interested in adding any RV's to NADA that don't already exist - thanks anyway. I just think it's draconian to remove what's already there when we may be able to keep it and fix and benefit from it.

[cmillsap]

Thank you David, You are indeed a true friend. I have no idea what’s still going on over at WOG regarding my posts. I removed the link from my ‘puter and I don’t go there anymore since removing my membership. When I said I’m done, I meant it. But I’m here at WAGU and still more than willing to help any WOG member if I can but they will need to join WAGU.

Really, it doesn’t bother or concern me if some members disagree with my position regarding NADA. I feel that removing the NADA values on my bus will hurt its marketplace pricing over the next 5 years. Obviously, some members feel otherwise. What does bother me more is Randy Dupree taking it upon himself to do something that I feel detrimentally affects the value of my bus. I didn’t ask him to be my proxy.

It’s interesting in that there is a general belief in the WOG membership that owning a Wanderlodge dictates that you have to depend on that forum to keep your ‘bird running. This feeling of loyalty stems from WOG’s dominate position on the internet search engines. Potential buyers searching for information on the web find WOG first and join as a “Wannabe”. A large number of them end up buying their bus from Randy due to the urging of other members and Randy’s advertising banner which headlines the WOG home page. This is all good and well to a certain point but the loyal members to Randy need to recognize that their input and contribution to WOG supports and helps feeds a constant stream of buyers and sellers to a profit making business ran by Randy. I’ve not heard of any member on WOG getting a commission for helping Randy sell Wanderlodges. Maybe Randy should share the wealth with them.

Older members will remember that for a long time WOG was simply a discussion site on Wanderlodges with members helping other members maintain their bus. Its only tie to a going business of selling ‘Birds was Randy’s ownership. As time went by, Randy slowly and methodically transformed the forum into a sales site for his businesses. First he added a headline banner on WOG’s home page and later added another hawking Bluebird Paraphernalia. This significantly increased the number of buyers and sellers using Randy’s business to buy or sell a bus and provided increased income to him.

Please don’t take my position here the wrong way. Randy has all the right in the world to run his business and derive a living out of it but he should not be using the member’s forum as an advertising site. If the WOG members are willing to allow Randy to take advantage of the forum’s popularity and turn it into a profit making business, so be it. I simply do not want to participate. Forums should not be ran as a front for your business. I would not want to own a Bluebird if I had to depend on Randy Dupree and his forum to keep it on the road and in good running condition. I love my LXi and enjoy fixin’ it up and keeping it beautiful and I can manage that without WOG.

Certainly forums can be helpful if ran properly. I am thankful that David Brady has provided a true forum in WAGU as an alternative. The document archives are the things I value most. WAGU provides the best Wanderlodge document library on the internet today. It provides me with what I need to keep my bus maintained. Knowledgeable and experienced members input such as the ones you will find here on WAGU are also a great benefit. There is no member including those remaining on WOG that has the breadth of knowledge about a late model Wanderlodge than David Brady. WOG members need to join WAGU and take advantage of all the great information provided here. It is a real process to find information located in the WOG documents. Probably, the best organized documentation on WOG are the LXi documents that David and I uploaded to it back several years ago.

I’m sorry that my position on the NADA values removal has caused such an uproar. (Sigh). But it has helped shed a light on what is really happening over on WOG and why Randy started this mess in the first place.

[rrueckwald]

Chuck, you are making assumptions. I am trying so hard to be neutral, but it is getting tough. This is the last from me on this subject. It's time to fold 'em.

[DonB]

I should probably follow Ron's lead on this and disappear from the thread, but...

Chuck, if you please: Is there any possibility in H**l that you would have known I was looking for an M380 if you hadn't read my posts on WOG?

Did you offer Randy a commission for the sale made because of his site?

Note that I don't think you should have, nor should there be commissions on the large number of other Birds sold not by Randy, but because of connections made through WOG. I point it out because it is one of the items of hypocrisy I referred to in my initial post here.

[davidbrady]

(04-20-2015 16:33)rrueckwald Wrote:  This is the last from me on this subject. It's time to fold 'em.

This is a shame because I really do like the Wanderlodge NADA resource. I've used it for years, mostly to check out what's been made when, what the basic bird configurations were, and what the original retail prices were. The original retail prices are endlessly fascinating. It's a great resource of data that I think has lots of benefits for the community. I'd really like to have your support on this. The more ideas on how to update pricing and make it work the better; I think it's worthwhile to save. I'll continue to plug away at it...

[cmillsap]

(04-20-2015 16:33)rrueckwald Wrote:  Chuck, you are making assumptions. I am trying so hard to be neutral, but it is getting tough. This is the last from me on this subject. It's time to fold 'em.

Hi Ron,
Yep, I’m done too with trying to get people to realize or at least consider possible reasons why this was done. It’s just not worth the hassle. Please don’t think that I am just making assumptions. I hope you know that I am better than that. There is plenty of evidence out there to support my statements if people are willing to keep an open mind.
Now let’s work together and turn our attention on to trying to retain a neutral third party for the maintenance of Wanderlodge values. What would be wrong with BBBB and Bird Connection reporting their sales to NADA? I’d bet that Parliament would go for that. Whether BBBB and Bird Connection would go for it is another matter. Certainly fair minded members of both forums may agree to it and help persuade both sales sites to at least consider it.

---

(04-20-2015 17:09)DonB Wrote:  I should probably follow Ron's lead on this and disappear from the thread, but...

Chuck, if you please: Is there any possibility in H**l that you would have known I was looking for an M380 if you hadn't read my posts on WOG?

Did you offer Randy a commission for the sale made because of his site?

Note that I don't think you should have, nor should there be commissions on the large number of other Birds sold not by Randy, but because of connections made through WOG. I point it out because it is one of the items of hypocrisy I referred to in my initial post here.

Hi Don,

No matter if we disagree on some things, I will always consider you as my friend. I do appreciate your input here, please do it more often.

Regarding your first question, the answer is “probably not”. But the same question could be asked. Would you have ever found a seller willing to sell you a M380 at $5000 less than you could buy it from Randy? Now before you answer that question, we both know there was a M380 in Canada for sale for less. But we both also know that there were M380s selling for much higher prices. So we have to consider apples for apples here. OK? The answer I will presume here is “probably not".

I think that you have just made my point. Buying and selling your bus through a member’s forum such as WOG or WAGU to another member as well as sharing information on those busses is what it is all about. Just because Randy owns the site doesn’t mean that he should stick a sales site into the mix. Obviously, you saved money when you bought my bus rather than buying Randy’s.

You are right that Randy didn’t ask for a commission and simply being the forum owner doesn’t qualify for one. David would never consider making money off a member’s forum. The members are free to list their bus here. David designed a great advertising page on WAGU specifically to help members sell the busses.

Chuck

[GregOConnor]

Google is to the internet as The Card-Catalog is to the Library. Rules exist to keep the card catalog objective and competition exist to keep google objective. If google doesn't produce good results and differentiate the organic and paid advertiser search results, users go to ;yahoo, ask, bing etc. Google has an interest in making search results accurate and produce objective good content. NADA is the search engine of prices and unchallenged in their game much like the card-catalogue .
Now that NADA went online and opened their data to the public for free they no longer can sell hard-copy books at a premium to a limited audience (dealers, Banks, Appraisers ). NADA's new income is advertising. NADAs objective is to generate many viewers to boost the hit count and market the traffic to advertiser customers. Their product is good accurate objective data. none exist on older high end rv's. they are sold private party and no one is telling the truth. I suspect much of the other good data comes from auction and finance sales and maybe registration sales tax. I would also bet NADA is wise to not take the word of dealers or owners with a subjective steak in the game. If I was a wanderlodge boker I would want to buy space on their site when someone searched Wanderlodge, Provost, foretravel, Newell and play along with their shtick. If no one is interested in buying the search term wanderlodge, why research, maintain and risk having it.

OK I do a bit of name calling but I can take it too and wont bust chops on someone who cant take it. Got a call from a dealer selling my bus. Claimed he is not a hick (I ain't no Hick), I asked him to listen to his voice mail message, then call me back

[DonB]

(04-20-2015 18:11)cmillsap Wrote:  But the same question could be asked. Would you have ever found a seller willing to sell you a M380 at $5000 less than you could buy it from Randy? Now before you answer that question, we both know there was a M380 in Canada for sale for less. But we both also know that there were M380s selling for much higher prices.

Actually, I don't know that. what M380s do you know of that sold in that time frame for more than I paid? Not listing price, but paid price. In the past couple of weeks it is possible that Robert's might have sold for more, although I'm not positive of the selling price. Otherwise I think *every* M380 sold in the past couple of years sold at or less than I paid you. I was willing to pay that price *because* of your extensive posting history on WOG for this critter.

On the one "selling" for $5000 more, no, it was *asking* $5000 more. I made an offer on it substantially less than I paid you, for a variety of reasons including the lack of history and the 2002 tires. The seller said "Those are 200,000 mile tires!!! If I can't get my price I won't sell." and he proceeded to delist it. A few months ago it was back, with new tires, and the same price. BUT he did not get the price. I have been in the bus since then, and conversed extensively with the new owner, and he paid a lot less than I did. He also got a bus that was arguably worth less as well, so I'm not complaining. You got your asking price, and I got what I wanted.

My point is/was that *dozens* of these sorts of transactions occur through WOG each year. Likely somewhat more in numbers than Randy sells. If you only read what is said about Randy and WOG here on this forum you would be hard pressed to believe that there are sections on WOG called "Coaches Wanted" and "Coaches for sale by WOG Members" and "Craigs List, EBay, Coaches and other finds." A greedy forum owner would not allow such discussions, period. Instead, those sections have 100, 574, and 1,420 threads, respectively, 26,932 posts between them!

[davidbrady]

Good news!

I just got off the phone with Jackie at RV Guides NADA. She told me there are only 3 staff members who handle all the RV listings in the guide, she being one of them. She can be contacted by email at rvs@nadaguides.com, attention "rv department". But, please let's not bombard the rv department with email. I'm posting the email address so that BBBB, BirdConnection, and Parliament Coach can contact them.

Jackie explained that they'll gladly accept "real retail SOLD transaction prices" from brokers, no need to be a dealer member. She explained that they are a national outfit and their prices reflect this, so locality differences are to be expected. I explained that the pricing discrepancies in the guide go well beyond locality issues. She also expressed her concern that the number of sales that BBBB, BirdConnection, and Parliament Coach might be too small for them to be of any significant value to RV Guide. I explained that in Wanderodge's heyday they sold at most 50 coaches per year and that the sales at BBBB, BirdConnection, and Parliament Coach are of the same order. Jackie also said that they had this same issue with Airstream and they had difficulty coming together because many of the vintage Airstreams sold today had been gutted and significantly rebuilt. I assured her that the Birds that BBBB, BirdConnection, and Parliament Coach sell are basically original without significant modification and that some of the birds are as new as 2009.

So, it looks promising. NADA RV Guides has the door open and is willing to accept and act on data if BBBB, BirdConnection, Parliament Coach, and other dealer/brokers are willing to work with them. Together, if we act in good faith, we can reverse this path and fix the NADA pricing of Wanderlodges while retaining all the benefits that come with the NADA RV Guide. It's up to the Wanderlodge Community to politely ask these dealer/brokers if they are interested.

It's not going to be 100% easy. For instance, RV Guides may hesitate if only one 1993 WB is sold in a given year, and they may exhibit caution in immediately acting on that singular piece of data; there may be a delay before pricing reflects this new information. But, Jackie is reasonable and she's a wonderful listener. She understands the situation, has seen it before, and is willing to help. We need to be equally flexible, creative, and open minded in the suggestions we offer.

This posting can be shared and reposted. I grant anyone that permission; feel free!