Coolant Pressure Control Cap

[Pete Masterson]

I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...

Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.

Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
radiator).

My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.

When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.

I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
coolant along...)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

> <Snip>
> I like my drive train component temps now.
>
> Engine Oil-215
> Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> Transmission Temp- 170
> Retarder Temp- 220
> All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> a 20ft trailer w/car.
>
> I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> working order.
>
> My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
>
> Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> one. LOL lol, lol



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Pete Masterson]

I understand that many of the tour busses that run from LA to Las
Vegas run with a radiator spray system. They install a 55 gal tank,
pump, etc. and run the sprayer as needed during the run. LA water is
generally, not particularly hard, but some build up does occur. The
radiators are washed down with a mild vinegar solution (and rinsed
thoroughly) from time to time to counteract the build up.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Mar 4, 2007, at 7:16 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

> '
> Good idea. I have plenty of room to install a back up distilled
> water tank for that purpose just in case. You never know when you
> might need some help. I would be easy to do.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob & Carol Howald`
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 9:02 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Coolant Pressure Control Cap
>
>
>
>
> Leroy: I also installed what was or is called a swamp cooler
> on the radiator. It took water from the potable water tank and
> thru a
> pump and fittings it sprayed water on the radiator on demand. I had
> the control at the driver panel. It had about four or five different
> settings that sprayed water at timed rates. I would rate it about 5
> on a scale of 1 to 10. I really never used it much. The best
> procedure was to turn the fan on before the climb and adjust speed
> and rpm with a lower gear and just sit and enjoy the ride up the
> pass. One draw back might be that if your using really hard
> water that you will get a mineral build up on the fin's of the
> radiator rather quickly.(hard to get off).
> worked for me..sort-of..??;;;;; Bob 93pt-40
> '
<snip>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chuck Wheeler]

I received the Dometric recall notice in the mail today. I stated that the
service kit would be available about April 17.

- Chuck Wheeler -
82 FC 31 SB
Fort Worth, TX


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Leroy Eckert]

Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it, and I
just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an Alarmstat fan
controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper limit. That is why I
changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may yet try a 185 degree just to
see if it interferes with the engine thermostat operation. I have a feeling
that it will not. If I can get my coach to run on the flat in the mid-range of
DD specifications, an average of 185 degrees I am going to do it. As always,
thanks again for the input.

Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try this
unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine is doing
fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory works, I'm happy
and I will report.

For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that actually
forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the hydraulic fan on
and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan override is off. That is
how mine works on the WB-40

I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I need it.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL





----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap


I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...

Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.

Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
radiator).

My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.

When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.

I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
coolant along...)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA

On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

> <Snip>
> I like my drive train component temps now.
>
> Engine Oil-215
> Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> Transmission Temp- 170
> Retarder Temp- 220
> All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> a 20ft trailer w/car.
>
> I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> working order.
>
> My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
>
> Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> one. LOL lol, lol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Bradner]

My 195-degree alarmstat runs the temp between 189-197, with the engine
thermostat at 180. If the 185-degree alarmstat ran 179-187 (big IF), that would
appear to have the potential of turning the fan on at 187 and then never turning
it off, as the temp would rarely drop to 179. Now it is quite possible my 189 is
undershoot after the alarmstat has turned the fan off, in which case it won't
matter.

Where is the alarmstat, physically? I think someone asked where you were getting
it, but if there was a reply I did not see it.

On 3/5/2007 at 6:12 PM Leroy Eckert wrote:

>Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it,
>and I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
>Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
>limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may
>yet try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine
>thermostat operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my
>coach to run on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average
>of 185 degrees I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.
>
>Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try
>this unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine
>is doing fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory
>works, I'm happy and I will report.
>
>For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
>actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
>hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
>override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40
>
>I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I
>need it.
>
>Leroy Eckert
>1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
>Niceville, FL
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pete Masterson
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
>
>
> I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
> homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...
>
> Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
> dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
> outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
> water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
> metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
> clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.
>
> Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
> problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
> efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
> radiator).
>
> My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
> the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
> is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.
>
> When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
> cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.
>
> I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
> chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
> yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
> radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
> coolant along...)
>
> Pete Masterson
> aeonix1@...
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> El Sobrante, CA
>
> On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
>
> > <Snip>
> > I like my drive train component temps now.
> >
> > Engine Oil-215
> > Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> > Transmission Temp- 170
> > Retarder Temp- 220
> > All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> > a 20ft trailer w/car.
> >
> > I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> > system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> > The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> > working order.
> >
> > My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> > climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
> >
> > Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> > one. LOL lol, lol
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

[Leroy Eckert]

Yes, that is what I am testing. The 180 degree engine thermostats operate
between 180-197 degrees. The 170 degree engine thermostats operate between
170-187. You are absolutely correct in your statement.

However, based upon the tests I have made I cannot under any circumstances
force the engine thermostats to cycle so to speak, so in my opinion, based on my
documented testing, if they are going to cycle they will do so in winter. They
are either closing gradually, or they are fully open. The fact of the matter is
this, the Alarmstat pushes the temperature to the high limit before the fan is
exercised. ( restricted air flow vs. hp, I will guarantee that was the original
theory) Hey, this thing is not a race car.

If on a hot day the fan comes on at 195 degrees, there is a lot of residual hot
water in the lines intended to cool the tranny, engine oil, retarder
etc.(remember they are working and they are hot) If the Alarmstat has a 8-10
degree operating range, and it does, then the average cooling water temperature
used to cool the drive train components is to hot in my opinion. Remember,
there are several feet of cooling hose in the compartment. Frankly, I think
that is crazy. There simply is not enough fan operating time (air flow) to cool
the water flow to the components.

My Alarmstat is located on the water jacket next to the water pump on the left
hand side (looking at the engine from the rear) adjacent to the temperature
sender. It is a bulb looking sensor with two wires. The original connections
were screw connections. Replacement units are slide on connectors which I
filled with epoxy.. If the part has not been painted it should have Alarmstat,
or Medallion Instruments on it. On the hex portion it should have 195 stamped.
It is a BB part, currently manufactured by Medallion Instruments and comes in a
box stating standard OEM BB parts. I could not order it from another supplier.
About $80.00, and 30 minutes of time to change.

This whole issue came up over a radiator cap at 7-9-13 psi. The higher the
rating the higher the boiling point. I'm thinking , reduce the operating
temperature, and to hell with worrying about the cap pressure. 7-9 should be
good.

I will say this again. I have a Royale Conversion. I would not think that has
anything to do with the DD, but you should be certain that you understand how
your system is set up before you change anything. So far, I'm good.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL



----- Original Message -----
From: Don Bradner
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap


My 195-degree alarmstat runs the temp between 189-197, with the engine
thermostat at 180. If the 185-degree alarmstat ran 179-187 (big IF), that would
appear to have the potential of turning the fan on at 187 and then never turning
it off, as the temp would rarely drop to 179. Now it is quite possible my 189 is
undershoot after the alarmstat has turned the fan off, in which case it won't
matter.

Where is the alarmstat, physically? I think someone asked where you were
getting it, but if there was a reply I did not see it.

On 3/5/2007 at 6:12 PM Leroy Eckert wrote:

>Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it,
>and I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
>Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
>limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may
>yet try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine
>thermostat operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my
>coach to run on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average
>of 185 degrees I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.
>
>Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try
>this unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine
>is doing fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory
>works, I'm happy and I will report.
>
>For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
>actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
>hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
>override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40
>
>I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I
>need it.
>
>Leroy Eckert
>1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
>Niceville, FL
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pete Masterson
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
>
>
> I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
> homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...
>
> Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
> dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
> outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
> water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
> metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
> clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.
>
> Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
> problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
> efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
> radiator).
>
> My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
> the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
> is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.
>
> When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
> cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.
>
> I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
> chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
> yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
> radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
> coolant along...)
>
> Pete Masterson
> aeonix1@...
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> El Sobrante, CA
>
> On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
>
> > <Snip>
> > I like my drive train component temps now.
> >
> > Engine Oil-215
> > Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> > Transmission Temp- 170
> > Retarder Temp- 220
> > All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> > a 20ft trailer w/car.
> >
> > I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> > system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> > The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> > working order.
> >
> > My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> > climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
> >
> > Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> > one. LOL lol, lol
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Leroy Eckert]

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Bradner
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap


My 195-degree alarmstat runs the temp between 189-197, with the engine
thermostat at 180. If the 185-degree alarmstat ran 179-187 (big IF), that would
appear to have the potential of turning the fan on at 187 and then never turning
it off, as the temp would rarely drop to 179. Now it is quite possible my 189 is
undershoot after the alarmstat has turned the fan off, in which case it won't
matter.

Where is the alarmstat, physically? I think someone asked where you were
getting it, but if there was a reply I did not see it.

On 3/5/2007 at 6:12 PM Leroy Eckert wrote:

>Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it,
>and I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
>Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
>limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may
>yet try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine
>thermostat operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my
>coach to run on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average
>of 185 degrees I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.
>
>Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try
>this unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine
>is doing fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory
>works, I'm happy and I will report.
>
>For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
>actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
>hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
>override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40
>
>I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I
>need it.
>
>Leroy Eckert
>1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
>Niceville, FL
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pete Masterson
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
>
>
> I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
> homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...
>
> Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
> dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
> outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
> water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
> metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
> clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.
>
> Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
> problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
> efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
> radiator).
>
> My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
> the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
> is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.
>
> When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
> cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.
>
> I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
> chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
> yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
> radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
> coolant along...)
>
> Pete Masterson
> aeonix1@...
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> El Sobrante, CA
>
> On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
>
> > <Snip>
> > I like my drive train component temps now.
> >
> > Engine Oil-215
> > Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> > Transmission Temp- 170
> > Retarder Temp- 220
> > All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> > a 20ft trailer w/car.
> >
> > I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> > system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> > The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> > working order.
> >
> > My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> > climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
> >
> > Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> > one. LOL lol, lol
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chuck Wheeler]

Leroy,



I am pulling at my memory on this one and have been thing about it since I
read your posts, but I spent one summer while in college working in a shop
that rebuilt DDs. I think some of the old timers got tired of all my
questions! At that time there were shutters in front of the radiator to
control the temperature. There were also thermostats in the engines. The
reason I was given was that the DDs were two cycle engines; I think they
were Xv71s, and the function of the thermostats was primarily to get the
engine up to temperature quickly to prevent fouling. The shutters
controlled the running temperatures. The shutters were set at a higher
temperature than the full open point of the thermostats so there would be
full coolant flow through the block to prevent hot spots that would occur if
the flow was restricted. These were trucks so the shutters controlled the
"ram" air, a bus is different, but cycling the fan has the same effect. The
other thing I remember was that the DDs being two cycle engines did not have
the intake stroke to cool the pistons. This is accomplished by the
scavenging and is why the condition of the charge air cooler is very
important. Your temperature gauge only shows the average temperature of the
engine coolant. I know there were some interesting discussions with DD
factory engineers when we were doing custom work on specialized construction
equipment. They wanted to keep the average temperatures up and the peak
temperatures down. I would expect that since BB was a builder and customer
of DD that there was consulting with the factory on the design of the
cooling. I do remember lunch time discussions about the condition of charge
air coolers that the customer would not repair, or someone who had blocked
the shutters open to make their truck run cooler, and how long it would be
until we had the equipment in for a rebuild.



If you have one of the 4 cycle DDs this probably does not apply.



- Chuck Wheeler -

82 FC 31 SB

Fort Worth, TX

_____

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:13 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap



Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it, and
I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may yet
try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine thermostat
operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my coach to run
on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average of 185 degrees
I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.

Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try this
unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine is doing
fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory works, I'm
happy and I will report.

For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40

I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I need
it.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap

I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...

Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.

Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
radiator).

My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.

When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.

I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
coolant along...)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@mac. com
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA

On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

> <Snip>
> I like my drive train component temps now.
>
> Engine Oil-215
> Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> Transmission Temp- 170
> Retarder Temp- 220
> All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> a 20ft trailer w/car.
>
> I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> working order.
>
> My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
>
> Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> one. LOL lol, lol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Leroy Eckert]

Thanks for the response Chuck. According to the content of your post you surely
must have just recently graduated from college because your info does almost
perfectly follow my DD manual. 'lol

What got me started with this boondoggle was a failing Alarmstat in mid
September last year. It was intermittent and caused the engine temperature to
go above 200-205. At that time I estimated those temperatures using the
original gauge. I have since installed VMSps and can now receive actual data
from the DDEC II. It turns out that my gauge is very close to actual
temperatures.

In mid September I had no need to operate the chassis a/c. So I changed the
sensor to its published value, 195 degree and found that it did if fact cycle
around 195-205 degrees. During the time the original Alarmstat was acting up I
made notes of temperatures of all the drive train components while operating
with the fan in override because I did not care for the temperature climbing
above 200 degrees. I found that water temperature stabilized at around 170
degrees with cool OAT and the fan in override. No cycling of engine thermostats
was evident. When I noticed the new alarmstat pushing the temps to the upper
limit I began to wonder why. I contacted BB and asked questions. I contacted
Southern Power and asked questions When I wasn't satisfied with the answer,
being the old backyard Chevy 301 (283 punched out) mechanic that I am I
purchased a DD service manual set and started researching the cooling portion.
There are several set ups available including shutters, on/off fans, modulating
fans etc. There are two thermostat ranges.

The only time I see my thermostats themselves cycle is when I begin a trip. The
temperature will climb to about 195 degrees, cycle back to about 170 and then
get on the Alarmstat cycle. I see the same thing happen in my Cummins SLT
pickup, minus the Alarmstat. I have tried to force the thermostats to cycle
this winter( the only time they will ever cycle if they are going to do so) and
have not been able to force it to happen. In summer, the chassis a/c is on with
the fan running full RPM and the temperature is stable at 190, because the
Alarmstat is bypassed in this configuration.

I decided to change to a 190 degree Alarmstat to see what would happen. I found
the I received temperature reductions in drive line components of about 6%. I
have not seen any adverse reactions to the engine----- Yet, and I do not believe
it will cause a problem based on the DD manual, and its published temperature
ranges. Since you were right on, I'll send you the two pages to look at , if
you have time, and please give me your input to see if I am ok here. <<:>>
I would need to do that off forum.

Interesting side note. I was on a boat last week with an 8v92 turbo. Those
engines are worked under power all the time and his water temp was steady at 180
degrees. That was raw water through a heat exchanger. That makes me wonder more
about all of this.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL






----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Wheeler
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap


Leroy,

I am pulling at my memory on this one and have been thing about it since I
read your posts, but I spent one summer while in college working in a shop
that rebuilt DDs. I think some of the old timers got tired of all my
questions! At that time there were shutters in front of the radiator to
control the temperature. There were also thermostats in the engines. The
reason I was given was that the DDs were two cycle engines; I think they
were Xv71s, and the function of the thermostats was primarily to get the
engine up to temperature quickly to prevent fouling. The shutters
controlled the running temperatures. The shutters were set at a higher
temperature than the full open point of the thermostats so there would be
full coolant flow through the block to prevent hot spots that would occur if
the flow was restricted. These were trucks so the shutters controlled the
"ram" air, a bus is different, but cycling the fan has the same effect. The
other thing I remember was that the DDs being two cycle engines did not have
the intake stroke to cool the pistons. This is accomplished by the
scavenging and is why the condition of the charge air cooler is very
important. Your temperature gauge only shows the average temperature of the
engine coolant. I know there were some interesting discussions with DD
factory engineers when we were doing custom work on specialized construction
equipment. They wanted to keep the average temperatures up and the peak
temperatures down. I would expect that since BB was a builder and customer
of DD that there was consulting with the factory on the design of the
cooling. I do remember lunch time discussions about the condition of charge
air coolers that the customer would not repair, or someone who had blocked
the shutters open to make their truck run cooler, and how long it would be
until we had the equipment in for a rebuild.

If you have one of the 4 cycle DDs this probably does not apply.

- Chuck Wheeler -

82 FC 31 SB

Fort Worth, TX

_____

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:13 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap

Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it, and
I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may yet
try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine thermostat
operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my coach to run
on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average of 185 degrees
I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.

Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try this
unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine is doing
fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory works, I'm
happy and I will report.

For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40

I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I need
it.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap

I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...

Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.

Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
radiator).

My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.

When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.

I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
coolant along...)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@mac. com
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA

On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

> <Snip>
> I like my drive train component temps now.
>
> Engine Oil-215
> Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> Transmission Temp- 170
> Retarder Temp- 220
> All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> a 20ft trailer w/car.
>
> I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> working order.
>
> My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
>
> Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> one. LOL lol, lol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chuck Wheeler]

I wish! I graduated about 33 years ago! Sounds like you have done your
homework. How do you know it the thermostats cycle? Most of the time you
see a slight drop on the initial opening of the thermostat(s) as the cold
coolant from the radiator is let in. After that there is a lot of mixing
going on and the and the radiator is acquiring heat from the charge air
cooler, transmission cooler etc. Boats are a different animal; those
engines are under a constant heavy load all the time. You have to run a
lower average temperature to keep the peaks within range. They usually have
a different thermostat housing that bypasses a lot of water as they have an
unlimited supply of cold coolant. There is an interesting article at:



http://www.yachtsurvey.com/comparing_diesel_types.htm



that is somewhat related.



- Chuck Wheeler -

82 FC 31 SB

Fort Worth, TX

_____

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:00 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap



Thanks for the response Chuck. According to the content of your post you
surely must have just recently graduated from college because your info does
almost perfectly follow my DD manual. 'lol

What got me started with this boondoggle was a failing Alarmstat in mid
September last year. It was intermittent and caused the engine temperature
to go above 200-205. At that time I estimated those temperatures using the
original gauge. I have since installed VMSps and can now receive actual data
from the DDEC II. It turns out that my gauge is very close to actual
temperatures.

In mid September I had no need to operate the chassis a/c. So I changed the
sensor to its published value, 195 degree and found that it did if fact
cycle around 195-205 degrees. During the time the original Alarmstat was
acting up I made notes of temperatures of all the drive train components
while operating with the fan in override because I did not care for the
temperature climbing above 200 degrees. I found that water temperature
stabilized at around 170 degrees with cool OAT and the fan in override. No
cycling of engine thermostats was evident. When I noticed the new alarmstat
pushing the temps to the upper limit I began to wonder why. I contacted BB
and asked questions. I contacted Southern Power and asked questions When I
wasn't satisfied with the answer, being the old backyard Chevy 301 (283
punched out) mechanic that I am I purchased a DD service manual set and
started researching the cooling portion. There are several set ups available
including shutters, on /off fans, modulating fans etc. There are two
thermostat ranges.

The only time I see my thermostats themselves cycle is when I begin a trip.
The temperature will climb to about 195 degrees, cycle back to about 170 and
then get on the Alarmstat cycle. I see the same thing happen in my Cummins
SLT pickup, minus the Alarmstat. I have tried to force the thermostats to
cycle this winter( the only time they will ever cycle if they are going to
do so) and have not been able to force it to happen. In summer, the chassis
a/c is on with the fan running full RPM and the temperature is stable at
190, because the Alarmstat is bypassed in this configuration.

I decided to change to a 190 degree Alarmstat to see what would happen. I
found the I received temperature reductions in drive line components of
about 6%. I have not seen any adverse reactions to the engine----- Yet, and
I do not believe it will cause a problem based on the DD manual, and its
published temperature ranges. Since you were right on, I'll send you the two
pages to look at , if you have time, and please give me your input to see if
I am ok here. <<:>>
I would need to do that off forum.

Interesting side note. I was on a boat last week with an 8v92 turbo. Those
engines are worked under power all the time and his water temp was steady at
180 degrees. That was raw water through a heat exchanger. That makes me
wonder more about all of this.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL

----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Wheeler
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap

Leroy,

I am pulling at my memory on this one and have been thing about it since I
read your posts, but I spent one summer while in college working in a shop
that rebuilt DDs. I think some of the old timers got tired of all my
questions! At that time there were shutters in front of the radiator to
control the temperature. There were also thermostats in the engines. The
reason I was given was that the DDs were two cycle engines; I think they
were Xv71s, and the function of the thermostats was primarily to get the
engine up to temperature quickly to prevent fouling. The shutters
controlled the running temperatures. The shutters were set at a higher
temperature than the full open point of the thermostats so there would be
full coolant flow through the block to prevent hot spots that would occur if
the flow was restricted. These were trucks so the shutters controlled the
"ram" air, a bus is different, but cycling the fan has the same effect. The
other thing I remember was that the DDs being two cycle engines did not have
the intake stroke to cool the pistons. This is accomplished by the
scavenging and is why the condition of the charge air cooler is very
important. Your temperature gauge only shows the average temperature of the
engine coolant. I know there were some interesting discussions with DD
factory engineers when we were doing custom work on specialized construction
equipment. They wanted to keep the average temperatures up and the peak
temperatures down. I would expect that since BB was a builder and customer
of DD that there was consulting with the factory on the design of the
cooling. I do remember lunch time discussions about the condition of charge
air coolers that the customer would not repair, or someone who had blocked
the shutters open to make their truck run cooler, and how long it would be
until we had the equipment in for a rebuild.

If you have one of the 4 cycle DDs this probably does not apply.

- Chuck Wheeler -

82 FC 31 SB

Fort Worth, TX

_____

From: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:13 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap

Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it, and
I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may yet
try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine thermostat
operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my coach to run
on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average of 185 degrees
I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.

Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try this
unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine is doing
fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory works, I'm
happy and I will report.

For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40

I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I need
it.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap

I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...

Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.

Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
radiator).

My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.

When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.

I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
coolant along...)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@mac. com
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA

On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

> <Snip>
> I like my drive train component temps now.
>
> Engine Oil-215
> Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> Transmission Temp- 170
> Retarder Temp- 220
> All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> a 20ft trailer w/car.
>
> I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> working order.
>
> My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
>
> Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> one. LOL lol, lol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]