Engine Swap

[rwoodysurplus]

yes sir..

we gotta try it for fun!

never say never they tell me!

too easy to change if we are wrong.

Thanks! for putting the thinking cap on to show me the reason why?

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> On 12/17/2008 at 3:32 AM rwoodysurplus wrote:
>
> >yes you are right--GOOD CATCH~!
> >
> >going to try that ...pushers suck air from the side
> >
> >why not the rear????
>
> Question: "why not the rear????"
>
> based on assumption: "pushers suck air from the side"
>
> Have you considered the (likely) possibility that the assumption is
wrong? At least in terms of meaningful airflow?
>
> What would that do to your question?
>
> Don Bradner
> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> Posting today by aircard from Needles, California
> My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
>

[Don Bradner]

I'm not sure if that last question mark means you want me to explain why I said
it is likely that the assumption is wrong, or something else.

Assuming the former, my basis is empirical - it can easily be shown that a
typical pusher with side-mounted radiator will quickly overheat if there is not
a very large booster fan to suck lots of air in. Any natural flow is way too
weak. In my case, just going down a flat road with the fan idling at 600RPM I
see about 1 degree of temperature rise per 5 seconds until the fan kicks into
high speed.

On 12/17/2008 at 4:14 AM rwoodysurplus wrote:

>yes sir..
>
>we gotta try it for fun!
>
>never say never they tell me!
>
>too easy to change if we are wrong.
>
>Thanks! for putting the thinking cap on to show me the reason why?
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
> wrote:
>>
>> On 12/17/2008 at 3:32 AM rwoodysurplus wrote:
>>
>> >yes you are right--GOOD CATCH~!
>> >
>> >going to try that ...pushers suck air from the side
>> >
>> >why not the rear????
>>
>> Question: "why not the rear????"
>>
>> based on assumption: "pushers suck air from the side"
>>
>> Have you considered the (likely) possibility that the assumption is
>wrong? At least in terms of meaningful airflow?
>>
>> What would that do to your question?
>>
>> Don Bradner
>> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
>> Posting today by aircard from Needles, California
>> My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[rwoodysurplus]

I totaly agree don


but i dont have room for a side rad--so I have to run it in the rear
of the coach. We will build a tight fan shroud and see the results.

going to give it a shot....

thanks!

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if that last question mark means you want me to explain
why I said it is likely that the assumption is wrong, or something else.
>
> Assuming the former, my basis is empirical - it can easily be shown
that a typical pusher with side-mounted radiator will quickly overheat
if there is not a very large booster fan to suck lots of air in. Any
natural flow is way too weak. In my case, just going down a flat road
with the fan idling at 600RPM I see about 1 degree of temperature rise
per 5 seconds until the fan kicks into high speed.
>
> On 12/17/2008 at 4:14 AM rwoodysurplus wrote:
>
> >yes sir..
> >
> >we gotta try it for fun!
> >
> >never say never they tell me!
> >
> >too easy to change if we are wrong.
> >
> >Thanks! for putting the thinking cap on to show me the reason why?
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On 12/17/2008 at 3:32 AM rwoodysurplus wrote:
> >>
> >> >yes you are right--GOOD CATCH~!
> >> >
> >> >going to try that ...pushers suck air from the side
> >> >
> >> >why not the rear????
> >>
> >> Question: "why not the rear????"
> >>
> >> based on assumption: "pushers suck air from the side"
> >>
> >> Have you considered the (likely) possibility that the assumption is
> >wrong? At least in terms of meaningful airflow?
> >>
> >> What would that do to your question?
> >>
> >> Don Bradner
> >> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> >> Posting today by aircard from Needles, California
> >> My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

[timvasqz]

what ever you do, you need a designed air path.

conventional flow like in a fc have the fan sucking air in thru the
radiator then over the engine as a secondary cooling.

if you suck air in over the engine to cool the radiator that air
is first heated by the hot engine it passes. pluss the cfm
volumn must overcome the obsticals in the way. If you suck it in
from one side then blow it out the back you leave 1/2 the engine
without any other cooling than water jacket. blowing out both side
puts the hot air back at the radiator. I dont think you can blow it
out the bottom?????

then you have the design of the charge air cooler to consider,
wonder if it was intended to get the coldest air seeing that in
conventional design, it is first to pass air (thats usuly me in big
crowds)

running cooler than 'need to be' has nothing to do with 'running
better'. if it works now, it works

LeroyE once pointed out that there may be some issue or undocument
value of running with and without a mudflap. my thinking is without
a flap, the tranny and tires would stay cooler???????

GregoryO'Connor ofTim&Greg
94ptCa --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "rwoodysurplus"
wrote:
>
> I totaly agree don
>
>
> but i dont have room for a side rad--so I have to run it in the
rear
> of the coach. We will build a tight fan shroud and see the
results.
>
> going to give it a shot....
>
> thanks!
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure if that last question mark means you want me to
explain
> why I said it is likely that the assumption is wrong, or something
else.
> >
> > Assuming the former, my basis is empirical - it can easily be
shown
> that a typical pusher with side-mounted radiator will quickly
overheat
> if there is not a very large booster fan to suck lots of air in.
Any
> natural flow is way too weak. In my case, just going down a flat
road
> with the fan idling at 600RPM I see about 1 degree of temperature
rise
> per 5 seconds until the fan kicks into high speed.
> >
> > On 12/17/2008 at 4:14 AM rwoodysurplus wrote:
> >
> > >yes sir..
> > >
> > >we gotta try it for fun!
> > >
> > >never say never they tell me!
> > >
> > >too easy to change if we are wrong.
> > >
> > >Thanks! for putting the thinking cap on to show me the reason
why?
> > >
> > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 12/17/2008 at 3:32 AM rwoodysurplus wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >yes you are right--GOOD CATCH~!
> > >> >
> > >> >going to try that ...pushers suck air from the side
> > >> >
> > >> >why not the rear????
> > >>
> > >> Question: "why not the rear????"
> > >>
> > >> based on assumption: "pushers suck air from the side"
> > >>
> > >> Have you considered the (likely) possibility that the
assumption is
> > >wrong? At least in terms of meaningful airflow?
> > >>
> > >> What would that do to your question?
> > >>
> > >> Don Bradner
> > >> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> > >> Posting today by aircard from Needles, California
> > >> My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[birdshill123]

Re: Engine swap


Being as we are all consultants on this amazing swap I will add my 2
cents worth. Rear rads do work as evedenced by the FC Freightliners.
Most have the fan running constantly. There are aftermarket fans that
cycle. Rear rads will plug up with dirt easily. Make sure you can
easily get at the rad and CAC. Normally you need enough space between
the 2 to get some sort of low pressure pipe with a nozzle to flush the
dirt out of the rad. Run the slobber tube beyond the rad. Fabulous
swap!!!!


Bruce
1988FC

[Don Bradner]

No argument that rear radiators work, but they work by pushing the air out, not
by pulling in. If I understood Woody's long aerodynamic post he appeared to be
trying to find a way to justify keeping the original front-engine fan in place,
and getting air pulled in from the back.

On 12/17/2008 at 3:29 PM birdshill123 wrote:

>Being as we are all consultants on this amazing swap I will add my 2
>cents worth. Rear rads do work as eveidenced by the FC Freightliners.
>Most have the fan running constantly. There are aftermarket fans that
>cycle. Rear rads will plug up with dirt easily. make sure you can
>easily get at the rad and CAC. Normally you need enough space between
>the 2 to get some sort of low pressure pipe with a nozzle to flush the
>dirt out of the rad. Fabulous swap!!!!
>
>
>Bruce
>1988FC

[Rob Robinson]

Things are progressing quickly with Randy and Woody's swap. Today they
are installing the rad and intercooler. Woody has most of the
electrics done,and after lunch they will be building the intercooler
tubes and the exhaust system. They have been too busy for pics, but
Woody will take afew this afternoon. Quote "we may just start her up
today!" End Quote.

[Michael Day]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> No argument that rear radiators work, but they work by pushing the
air out, not by pulling in. If I understood Woody's long aerodynamic
post he appeared to be trying to find a way to justify keeping the
original front-engine fan in place, and getting air pulled in from the
back.
>
Don is correct. My 1992 Newell has a rear radiator with a fan pushing
air through the radiator and out the rear. The fan is directly run
off the engine so it moves air as long as the engine is running. You
really get a blast of air out the rear of the coach with the 8V92 on
fast idle. Whether the majority of the air being pushed through the
radiators by the fan is coming through the side engine vents or from
the air flow under the coach, I don't know.

I agree that the rear radiator does pick up more dirt and oil than a
side-radiator. The side radiator on Don's Wanderlodge does allow
better cooling. I have to back out of the throttle before he does on
long steep hills due to my engine temperature rising faster than his
as monitored by VMSpc on both of our coaches.

As always, thanks for allowing me to lurk and absorb knowledge on the
maintenance of Wanderlodges.

Michael Day
1992 Newell (SOB)
8V92, Allison HT-740

[Gardner Yeaw]

Woody,
I would say what ever the 3208 did would be the right way. I think
you should blow it out the rear.

Gardner
83FC35 (still broken)

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Day"
<michaeldday@...> wrote:
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
> wrote:
> >
> > No argument that rear radiators work, but they work by pushing the
> air out, not by pulling in. If I understood Woody's long aerodynamic
> post he appeared to be trying to find a way to justify keeping the
> original front-engine fan in place, and getting air pulled in from
the
> back.
> >
> Don is correct. My 1992 Newell has a rear radiator with a fan
pushing
> air through the radiator and out the rear. The fan is directly run
> off the engine so it moves air as long as the engine is running.
You
> really get a blast of air out the rear of the coach with the 8V92 on
> fast idle. Whether the majority of the air being pushed through the
> radiators by the fan is coming through the side engine vents or from
> the air flow under the coach, I don't know.
>
> I agree that the rear radiator does pick up more dirt and oil than a
> side-radiator. The side radiator on Don's Wanderlodge does allow
> better cooling. I have to back out of the throttle before he does
on
> long steep hills due to my engine temperature rising faster than his
> as monitored by VMSpc on both of our coaches.
>
> As always, thanks for allowing me to lurk and absorb knowledge on
the
> maintenance of Wanderlodges.
>
> Michael Day
> 1992 Newell (SOB)
> 8V92, Allison HT-740
>

[timvasqz]

I think Woodie has ChargeAirCooler on his swap. wonder how it is
done with the series 60 Newell with a CAC? How do they stack the
rads?? the 8v92 has not a CAC. Could be that it doesnt matter???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_air_cooler

I dont like a fan clutching on at high speeds. in the Wanderlodge
pushers the fan is hydrolic and not an issue but off the engine if
it clutches on at 2,800 rpm I think that is where most damage is
done. I replace them with two speed fans so as to not over cool an
engine by running it all the time or clutching up at full
speed/load.

Woodie you might check out
http://www.kit-masters.com/downloads/2-Speed_online.pdf
about $1,200. on a CumminsN14/'92FordAeromax

Bruce, slobber (byproduct) out the slobberTube(dynamicPath) is a two
stroke thing. the slobber off a fourstroke is crap passing the
crank case vent system. a major prob in areas of high humidity and
overfilled oilpans. if you let the engine get to operating temp the
crankcase vent should not spit much. two strokes have both a
crankcase vent and a slobertube for the valves. One prob with
reengineereing the vents or tubes is they dont drain well then block
up and prove other issues.

GregoryO'Connor ofTim&Greg
94ptCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Day"
<michaeldday@...> wrote:
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
> wrote:
> >
> > No argument that rear radiators work, but they work by pushing
the
> air out, not by pulling in. If I understood Woody's long
aerodynamic
> post he appeared to be trying to find a way to justify keeping the
> original front-engine fan in place, and getting air pulled in from
the
> back.
> >
> Don is correct. My 1992 Newell has a rear radiator with a fan
pushing
> air through the radiator and out the rear. The fan is directly run
> off the engine so it moves air as long as the engine is running.
You
> really get a blast of air out the rear of the coach with the 8V92
on
> fast idle. Whether the majority of the air being pushed through
the
> radiators by the fan is coming through the side engine vents or
from
> the air flow under the coach, I don't know.
>
> I agree that the rear radiator does pick up more dirt and oil than
a
> side-radiator. The side radiator on Don's Wanderlodge does allow
> better cooling. I have to back out of the throttle before he does
on
> long steep hills due to my engine temperature rising faster than
his
> as monitored by VMSpc on both of our coaches.
>
> As always, thanks for allowing me to lurk and absorb knowledge on
the
> maintenance of Wanderlodges.
>
> Michael Day
> 1992 Newell (SOB)
> 8V92, Allison HT-740
>