Mountain Driving with 1995 42', 42,000 lb. Blue Bird

[Tom McCarthy]

The 42,000 is empty; no liqiuds, tools, dishes, water, pans , people,
etc. Comfortably provisioned, you should be over 45,000 and you need
to be under 48,900, the max. weight. Get the coach weighed at each
tire to see how it is balanced and what your actual weight is.

Tom McCarthy
95 PT42
Poway, CA



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson
wrote:
>
> I don't know about the new ones but mine is a 1995 and the body tag
says 42,000 lbs. My guess would be that it is probably heavier than
the new ones. They are taking weight out of them to cut the cost of
production.
>
> Just my thoughts./
>
> Regards,
> Ron Thompson
>
> erniecarpet@... wrote: Ron, I may
be wrong but don't the newer coaches weigh more then the 42,000
> pounds?
>
> Ernie Ekberg
> 83PT40
> Livingston, Mt
>
> ************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Pete Masterson]

I'm no expert, but I've crossed the Rockies in southern Wyoming
twice, I've done the Raton pass in southern Colorado twice, I've gone
up and back down Colorado I-70 to near Evergreen CO, and I've crossed
the Sierras into California on I-80. Plus I've traveled through a
fair number of lesser mountains in Oregon, Idaho, and California. So
I've seen a few mountains.

Basically, the technique is to watch the temperatures, especially the
oil temp when you're climbing. Higher revs = cooler engine, so slow
down and shift down, as necessary. Take it easy.

Coming down, use the jake brake (it's actually integrated into the
automatic transmission, so when it's enabled, it 'kicks in' as
needed. The engine computer "watches" the revs to avoid over-reving
but you still need to watch that you don't exceed 2400 RPM while
exhaust (Jake) brake is operating and 2100 RPM while under power. In
general, come down at moderate speed. When you slow down with the
service brakes, slow to 5 mph or more _below_ your target speed, then
let the coach gradually pick up speed (still using the jake brake).

The coach has plenty of service brake capacity to control the
vehicle ... but you do need to pay attention an not run low on air.
Don't "ride" the brakes as that will heat them up and not really help
maintain control.

It is said that you should descend at the same speed that you climb
at ... but the reality is somewhat different. For example, from Reno
to Donner Pass on I-80 you climb about 3500 feet in 10 miles or so.
Then from Donner Pass to Roseville, you descend nearly 7000 feet in
40 miles. So, the grades are quite different and your speeds will not
be "the same"... Nevertheless, "keep it moderate" is a wise approach.
If road-side signs suggest a curve be taken at 40 mph -- take it to
heart. It's good advice. Be sure to get to 40 or slower for that
curve. (For years, I always wondered just who they were thinking of
with the curve-speed advisories. Now I know....)

Note: Do not use the jake brake under poor traction conditions (such
as snow or wet pavement) as it can lead to control/skidding problems.

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Harrisburg Oregon



On Jun 25, 2007, at 12:28 PM, Ron Thompson wrote:

> This is a question that lots of people might want to explore. Would
> someone with a lot of experience driving a big rig in the mountains
> please write up a good descriptive instruction for mountain driving.
>
> I have never driven in the big mountains with a normal vehicle much
> less a 42,000 lb motor coach. I am planning a trip through the
> mountains maybe this year but definitely next year from Texas through
> the Rockies and on up to Alaska. It would sure be helpful to have
> some pointers from an expert.
>
> Best regards,
> Ron Thompson
>

[Pete Masterson]

The "jake brake" on the '95 with the Series 60 engine is a true
"exhaust" brake and it generates no excess heat energy that must be
handled. It is not a magnetic brake like those used on earlier 'birds.

The brake system is integrated with the automatic transmission. You
flip the "enable" switch on and set the "intensity" switch to low,
medium, or high. When you take your foot of the accelerator pedal,
the jake kicks in. The transmission will shift down (if within a safe
RPM range) to the next lower gear to strengthen the braking effect,
depending on the position of the low/med/high switch. If you then
press on the accelerator pedal, the jake shuts off and (after a brief
delay) the transmission will up-shift to ensure that the RPM will be
in the safe range.

I note that on my coach, someone has wired-out the medium setting so
that I have the choice of either high or low, but I'm usually able to
find a balance on most grades that's satisfactory.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Jun 25, 2007, at 3:43 PM, brad barton wrote:
> <snip> If you have a magnetic retarder, be aware that it will build
> up considerable heat if used for several minutes..so downshift to
> help it out. I don't think your Jake brake or Pac brake is limited
> that way but a diesel mechanic can be more specific. <snip>
>

[Pete Masterson]

Without digging out my blue box, The maximum allowed GVW of the '95
is around 52,000 lbs. The approximate "curb" weight is around 42,000
lbs. (That may or may not count water and holding tanks -- I'd have
to dig out the book to be certain.) As typically loaded, I'd expect
that most would weigh about 46-48,000 lbs.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:12 PM, erniecarpet@... wrote:

> Ron, I may be wrong but don't the newer coaches weigh more then the
> 42,000
> pounds?
>

[Pete Masterson]

The Jake Brake or Jacob Brake is a particular brand of engine brake
manufactured and sold by Jacobs Vehicle Systems, Inc. While the term
Jake Brake technically only describes Jake Brake brand engine brakes,
it has become a genericized trademark and is often used to refer to
engine brakes or compression release engine brakes in general,
especially on large vehicles or heavy equipment. See Wikipedia for a
full entry at:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake>

The magnetic retarder used on some earlier BBs is similar to the
technology used for "dynamic braking" on diesel-electric railroad
locomotives. The diesel-electric locomotive is actually a diesel
generator (up to 5000 HP) that powers electric motors to drive the
engine. On down grades, the motors are electrically switched to
become generators, and the power produced is directed to very heavy
duty grids and discarded as heat. Realize that these things produce
600 amps at 600 volts and that's a _lot_ of heat! (Great for toasting
marshmallows.)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Ron Thompson wrote:

> My BB has an engine retarder. I have no idea what that is
> exactly. I assume it is using the compression of the engine to
> hold back the transmission which will hold back the BB
>
> What is a Jake Brake?
>
<snip>

[Stephen Birtles]

up to 1200 amps at 480 volts but don't do that on a curve or you get
to see the wrong side of the tree line
we are limited to 500 amps on heavy curves
you have to use a combination of train brake and dynamic on 2%or more
grades

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> The Jake Brake or Jacob Brake is a particular brand of engine brake
> manufactured and sold by Jacobs Vehicle Systems, Inc. While the term
> Jake Brake technically only describes Jake Brake brand engine brakes,
> it has become a genericized trademark and is often used to refer to
> engine brakes or compression release engine brakes in general,
> especially on large vehicles or heavy equipment. See Wikipedia for a
> full entry at:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake>
>
> The magnetic retarder used on some earlier BBs is similar to the
> technology used for "dynamic braking" on diesel-electric railroad
> locomotives. The diesel-electric locomotive is actually a diesel
> generator (up to 5000 HP) that powers electric motors to drive the
> engine. On down grades, the motors are electrically switched to
> become generators, and the power produced is directed to very heavy
> duty grids and discarded as heat. Realize that these things produce
> 600 amps at 600 volts and that's a _lot_ of heat! (Great for toasting
> marshmallows.)
>
> Pete Masterson
> aeonix1@...
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> El Sobrante, CA
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Ron Thompson wrote:
>
> > My BB has an engine retarder. I have no idea what that is
> > exactly. I assume it is using the compression of the engine to
> > hold back the transmission which will hold back the BB
> >
> > What is a Jake Brake?
> >
> <snip>
>

[Gardner Yeaw]

The true 'Jake Brake' is an integral part of the engine design. It
alters the exhaust valve timing to use the exhaust stroke for
compression braking as well as the normal compression stroke. It
makes a very distinctive loud sound when the exhaust valve is opened
late. You most likely have heard it whan an 18 wheeler is behind you
on a down grade. This system provides a significant braking effect.

An exhaust brake simply blocks the exhaust pipe. Since the volume
of the exhaust pipe is significantly greater than the cylinder in
the engine, there is far less resistance to the exhaust stroke and
equally less braking effect.

A retarder is an electronic or hydraulic device that provides
resistance to the drive train. These systems generate a lot of heat
and need to be used in conjunction with the service brakes to
distribute the braking load.

Whatever system your coach has, take the time to understand how
it works and how to effectively use it. Don't assume that it will
work all by itself without your understanding.






--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Birtles"
wrote:
>
> up to 1200 amps at 480 volts but don't do that on a curve or you
get
> to see the wrong side of the tree line
> we are limited to 500 amps on heavy curves
> you have to use a combination of train brake and dynamic on 2%or
more
> grades
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
> wrote:
> >
> > The Jake Brake or Jacob Brake is a particular brand of engine
brake
> > manufactured and sold by Jacobs Vehicle Systems, Inc. While the
term
> > Jake Brake technically only describes Jake Brake brand engine
brakes,
> > it has become a genericized trademark and is often used to refer
to
> > engine brakes or compression release engine brakes in general,
> > especially on large vehicles or heavy equipment. See Wikipedia
for a
> > full entry at:
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake>
> >
> > The magnetic retarder used on some earlier BBs is similar to
the
> > technology used for "dynamic braking" on diesel-electric
railroad
> > locomotives. The diesel-electric locomotive is actually a
diesel
> > generator (up to 5000 HP) that powers electric motors to drive
the
> > engine. On down grades, the motors are electrically switched to
> > become generators, and the power produced is directed to very
heavy
> > duty grids and discarded as heat. Realize that these things
produce
> > 600 amps at 600 volts and that's a _lot_ of heat! (Great for
toasting
> > marshmallows.)
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > aeonix1@
> > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> > El Sobrante, CA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Ron Thompson wrote:
> >
> > > My BB has an engine retarder. I have no idea what that is
> > > exactly. I assume it is using the compression of the engine
to
> > > hold back the transmission which will hold back the BB
> > >
> > > What is a Jake Brake?
> > >
> > <snip>
> >
>

[James Hutchings]

Just an add on " you do not ride the brakes.. You apply continuous gentle
pressure to slow the vehicle. As I said earlier if you smell brake you are
in to high of a gear. Slow down before you mow down some one else.

"Mountain driving - Professional drivers are taught to use the same
transmission gear to descend a grade as the one required to climb the grade.
This is a good rule of thumb but road surface conditions, visibility, and
other variables must be used. Proper use of an exhaust brake will save the
service brakes for real emergency stops. If you must use the service brakes
it is better to keep a continuous light application of the brake pedal. This
is less likely to cause brake fade than to allow your vehicle to speed up
and then pump your brakes to slow it down. Better yet descend in the correct
gear so that you don't even have to use the service brakes. It may take a
few seconds longer to get down, but at least the brake lining will be saved
and you won't have white knuckle brake fade to deal with. If your brakes do
fail, look for a run off ramp designed for that event. If none is available
try to scrub off speed by side swiping the mountain edge of the roadway. It
is better to damage the rig than to go off a steep embankment and roll over,
etc. Proper maintenance will significantly reduce this risk and you could
take a few seconds in the Brake Test Area on the top of the hill to inspect
and test your rig's brakes and tires. A few seconds is all it will cost. "





5.4.6 Proper Braking Technique

Remember. The use of brakes on a long and/or steep downgrade is only a
supplement to the braking effect of the engine. Once the vehicle is in the
proper low gear, the following is the proper braking technique:

. Apply the brakes just hard enough to feel a definite slowdown.

. When your speed has been reduced to approximately five mph below
your "safe" speed, release the brakes. (This application should last for
about three seconds.)

. When your speed has increased to your "safe" speed, repeat steps 1
and 2.

For example, if your "safe" speed is 40 mph, you would not apply the brakes
until your speed reaches 40 mph. You now apply the brakes hard enough to
gradually reduce your speed to 35 mph and then release the brakes. Repeat
this as often as necessary until you have reached the end of the downgrade.

Both methods work if you are in a low enough gear.



Jim Hutchings







From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pete Masterson
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 6:44 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Mountain Driving with 1995 42', 42,000 lb.
Blue Bird



The Jake Brake or Jacob Brake is a particular brand of engine brake
manufactured and sold by Jacobs Vehicle Systems, Inc. While the term
Jake Brake technically only describes Jake Brake brand engine brakes,
it has become a genericized trademark and is often used to refer to
engine brakes or compression release engine brakes in general,
especially on large vehicles or heavy equipment. See Wikipedia for a
full entry at:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake>

The magnetic retarder used on some earlier BBs is similar to the
technology used for "dynamic braking" on diesel-electric railroad
locomotives. The diesel-electric locomotive is actually a diesel
generator (up to 5000 HP) that powers electric motors to drive the
engine. On down grades, the motors are electrically switched to
become generators, and the power produced is directed to very heavy
duty grids and discarded as heat. Realize that these things produce
600 amps at 600 volts and that's a _lot_ of heat! (Great for toasting
marshmallows.)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA

On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Ron Thompson wrote:

> My BB has an engine retarder. I have no idea what that is
> exactly. I assume it is using the compression of the engine to
> hold back the transmission which will hold back the BB
>
> What is a Jake Brake?
>
<snip>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[brad barton]

James,
We were talking past each other. Steady pressure for a few second to slow down
is not the same as riding the brakes or pumping the brakes. You're right. Brad
Barton 00LXiDFW bbartonwx@...



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ron Thompson]

Randy,

Yes, I have a Detroit Series 60 Diesel with Allison World 6 speed transmission
with the Engine Retarder, which I guess is what you call the Jake Brake. I
assumed that it closes the valves and turns the cylinders into a compressor
thereby holding the coach back. I can see where that would be an effective
process.

Thanks Randy for clearing that up. Jake Brake was a new term to me and I wasn't
sure that what I had was a Jake Brake. It is all switch controlled though.

Thanks for the input.

Regards,
Ron Thompson
Waller, Texas (near Houston)


martingregg598 wrote:
Ron, if you have a Allison HT-755 five speed with a retarder, I have
know advice, if you have a 1995-42' you should have a Allison HD-4060
and a DD series 60 with a 3 position Jacobs engine brake. Jacobs's
brakes close the valves and turn the cylinder into a compressor
creating braking horsepower, each position adds more cylinders. I
haven't driven a 95 in the mountains but I have driven over a lot of
the passes in the Cascades, Montana, Idaho and so on, but I can't
imagine that if your in the right gear at the right RPM that the
engine brake won't hold it back. For me with a less effective Pac
Brake, it is 4th gear at 50 mph at about 2400 rpm's on a 6% or so, on
a steeper grade it's 3 gear at 35-40 mph and I almost never have to
use my air brakes. If I am in 4th and it starts to run away, faster
that I like, I use the brakes to get the coach down to the speed that
I can select the next lower gear. If the Jacobs brake doesn't hold
you back, maybe there is something wrong with the Jacobs brake?
As for the "Drum type" air brakes, if you have been on the road for a
time and the ambient temp. is hot, and If you ride the brakes for a
long period of time the drum can expand away from the shoe and you
lose your brakes. With some real bad luck you could heat the wheel up
so hot that it heats the tire up and blowout.
Marty
95 BMC 37
Kennewick Wa








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]